Here this thread comes up, yet again. 

I don't want to speak for VSL but my guess is that there just isn't enough of a demand out there right now for recorders or a lute.  Lute?  Maybe in the future and perhaps a solo recorder as recording an ensemble in true Baroque fashion might not be worth the cost of producing it.  Just a guess. 

A choir, on the other hand, may be in the works (I hope).  There is a demand for a boys choir, or even girls for that matter, and think what it would be worth to have a sample library of the world famous Vienna Boys Choir.

@mhschmieder said:

Same with Francis Ford Coppolla, who sometimes is big but is NOT Hollywood (he too is locally based). What a marvelous self-written soundtrack to "Tetro" last year! Didn't know he was a composer!

A bit OT here but Francis assisted his father Carmine and received a co-composer credit for the score to Apocalypse Now. Word has it that Carmine wasn't comfortable working with Moog synthesizers for the score but Francis insisted upon it.  Subsequently Francis assisted his father and ended up composing a lot of the cues himself.  At least that was the rumour I heard.  Both of them won a Golden Globe and a Grammy for the score.  

Is there demand? Yes. Is there enough? - that's up for debate.

Obviously there are those who'd use it. Not everyone purchases the Euphonium samples, but it still has it's place. I personally have very little use of the Electric Guitar, and with what else is out there... VSL would probably get more out of a Lute, imo anyway.

But in the end, it's this simple to me. Sampling a recorder is by no means an incredible task. If VSL produced a download package or dvd collection of 'special traditionals' or something... having a Recorder, bagpipe, lute, mandoline, and accordion (or whatever package users making such requests want most)... but point is that it wouldn't be costly to produce, yet there would certainly be users who would want it.

How many Bassoon 2 and Euphonium purchases are there? How many purchases of EWQL RA are there? That alone proves my point, that such instruments are absolutely desired in the sampling community. With the quality and thorough work that VSL does, such instruments from them would be FAR more welcome than the alternative options currently available.

-Sean

@iscorefilm said:

Is there demand? Yes. Is there enough? - that's up for debate.

Obviously there are those who'd use it. Not everyone purchases the Euphonium samples, but it still has it's place.

Exactly.  And the Glass Harmonica, Heckelphone and Waterphone have their place in a modern orchestra too although they are rarely ever used.  Key word here being modern.  Lutes and recorders don't have a place in a modern orchestra anymore.  And what about that electric guitar (Overdrive) which I use a lot.  Does it have a place?  Every once in a while yes it does. I have seen modern orchestras use overdrives although very rarely.  Don't forget that VSL has a foothold in Jazz too where overdrives are used more frequently.

One of my very first posts on this forum was requesting recorders.  That was back in January of '08.  Here we are nearly 4 years later and we have seen a choir, Brass Dimension, Bosendorfer Imperial, MIR, Vienna Suite, and many others but no recorders.  I'm not so interested in recorders anymore.    

  Aside from the Boys Choir that I mentioned above I would like to see more enthnic or world instruments sampled.  There is a growing demand for world music out there and ethnic instruments would help fill that void.

In the end, I think you're right Sean in that if they ever produce a recorders sample library it would be like an expansion pack to Special Woodwinds or something.  The Lute maybe another one to add to their plucked instruments collection.  We'll see.

@jasensmith said:

Key word here being modern.  Lutes and recorders don't have a place in a modern orchestra anymore.

Modern has less to do with the sound and more to do with the style of writing. I could use anything to produce sound and I could use that 'anything' with an orchestra. VSL's audience is not exclusive to film only. In fact, if we compared VSL and EW then RA would seem far more appropriate to have come from VSL than EW to begin with as VSL's user base is far less film-oriented (on average anyway) than EW. How many VSL demo's utilize the electric guitar? How many could utilize the recorder? Vivaldi would be accomplished best through VSL over any other library, no? 

That's just my take on it... I'm not trying to turn this into the world's longest and most pointless recorder debate... lol But, I'd like to see them, and I think a 'special collection' would work. But the only real point of this thread, I guess, is just to say 'I want it too'.

And yes, if I have to sample it myself- I will! I even requested that VSL allow a 3rd party format for samples in VI Pro as I intend on sampling things and hate kontakt now that I've been spoiled with VIP. It will certainly be a while before I've got anything usable... but I'll post it on here when I do. (in case anyone's interested anyway)

-Sean

@wwzeitler said:

 I hear recorders in MODERN film scores all the time

Name one, aside from the obvious period piece.  (Quick! google "recorders used in film scores") 

Besides, film orchestras are in a different realm all together.  Sure, in a film  orchestra, you might hear recorders and  lutes but you could also hear synths, overdrives, burundi drums quipos, pan flutes, zithers, Harmonicas, Human Beat Boxes, Blow Bottles, what have you, but should VSL drop everything they are doing to create a Human Beat Box sample library because somebody out there might need it for the 80's Break Dance revival movie they are scoring?

Look, if VSL decides to make a Lute or Recorder library, great!!! I'll be one of the first in line for the recorders because I would like them too.  but c'mon.  Aside from a few obscure composers out there who the hell uses lutes anymore.?  OK, I think a lute was used for the new Clash of the Titans remake score, I'll grant you that one, but that film could also be considered a period piece to some extent.  And it was a live player recorded not a sample library.  If the demand for Lutes, Recorders, or Human Beat Boxes increases I'm sure VSL will accommodate.  

Announcing, "Vienna Dimension Human Beat Box Sample Library, with the sounds of Herb, Paul, and Dietz all recorded in divisi"

Since when does VSL only cater to a film-scoring audience? And again, I ask... How can EW justify such instruments, being exclusively a film-focused library... yet VSL, a library appealing to film and classical users wouldn't have period instruments?

It just doesn't make sense for VSL to ignore the request, yet EW would make such a library.

-Sean

@iscorefilm said:

Announcing, "Vienna Dimension Human Beat Box Sample Library, with the sounds of Herb, Paul, and Dietz all recorded in divisi" [...]

-Sean

Shhhhhh!!! Didn't we agree not to spill the beans about this _that_ early?!?

[<:o)][:D]

Sorry Dietz, I was just too excited to hear your beat boxing technique, that I couldn't hold back.

Maybe the expanded library will be the three of you scatting... [H] Maybe if you guys do another video like the one with the "East Wurst tomatoes" bit, we'll see a preview of this library, lol

I've been hearing the instruments in VSL Elements in film and tv scores for years, decades. Horror/terror, sci fi, all the time. It's not very surprising to me to find that stuff here. I haven't found some of it anywhere else; Sonic Couture has some glass instruments but it doesn't sound as good to me and it's more limited in scope. The blown bottles in Glass Instruments of VSL are awesome btw. :)

@iscorefilm said:

It just doesn't make sense for VSL to ignore the request, yet EW would make such a library.

 

...but have they created such a library yet. 

Why?  because there isn't enough of a demand right now.  That's my point!  I think there is a demand for a Boys/Girls Choir, more so than for recorders and lutes anyway.  Actually due to the success of the Dimension Brass VSL is probably building on that with other Dimension offerings.  But that's just a guess. 

I never said VSL only caters to filmscorers.  VSL is like any other business.  They cater to a demand.  Whether to filmscorers, Classical Composers, Producers, students at university, etc.

BTW, back in the 80's, I was quite the Human Beat Boxer.  If VSL needs a Human Beat Box player, let me know.  I'd be honored to fly out to Vienna and offer my talents[H] 

indeed, one would have thought that the instruments you mentioned would have been a high priority as compared to Overdive and the VSL upriight bass.

one would think that the entire family of recorders would be (should have been) a perfect product for VSL.

sometimes demand is created after a product is brought to market.

joe

@iscorefilm said:

Does VSL have any plans to add any of these? These are the instruments I personally would like to see sampled well.

If anything, does anyone know who produces any of these with high quality and flexibility. I don't expect things to be as good as VSL, but most other options are no where near as flexible. Collections like RA are nice, but in some cases the offerings are well below par. The Bagpipes are horrendous! I don't expect VSL to look into bagpipes or anything (although a single ethnic collection would certainly be a wonderful treat!) but I would like to see certain more common instruments done, like recorders, etc.

-Sean

P.S. I know I'm probalby not the first to ask this, but after searching for recorders and not finding anything... I thought I'd ask.

RA is truly awful, and the more narrowly focused products from that vendor aren't much better. For the ethnic stuff, there are lots of possibilities now, and the revised Ethno World 5 is now (finally) one of the better choices.

As for baroque and earlier, Soniccouture came out with a small but excellent collection last year that I highly recommend. And later this month, Best Service has Eduarado Tarilonte's ancient instruments collection, but it unfortunately uses the Yellow Tools Engine.

I sold my Moeck Rothenberg Recorders (SS, S, A, and T -- no B) to a close friend a few years back, after finally picking up the flute. I just didn't enjoy playing Baroque Recorder anymore at that point, compared to Modern Flute. But the sample libraries are not very helpful.

You could go with Sampletekk for a more natural tone but little expression, or Precisionsound for lots of expression but too much baked-in vibrato and other problems of that nature -- it is designed for New Age and Film Scoring vs. authentic playing.

There's been a lot of activity regarding Recorders of late. Even Ethno World has a few somewhat usable ones.

I may just buy another Alto Recorder at some point (my favourite voicing). Technology has improved since the Moeck designs of the 70's/80's. But maybe VSL will surprise us, since there probably is an actual need for these amongst volume customers (unlike Crumhorn).

thanks for these suggestions.

the online demos of the Sampletekk recorders sound promising.

the Sonic Couture stuff is not bad.

have you checked out Bolder Sounds' "BOB Early Music"?

seems ironic to be discussing these instruments from third party developers on the VSL forum.

sorry but what is "RA"?

@mhschmieder said:

RA is truly awful, and the more narrowly focused products from that vendor aren't much better. For the ethnic stuff, there are lots of possibilities now, and the revised Ethno World 5 is now (finally) one of the better choices.

As for baroque and earlier, Soniccouture came out with a small but excellent collection last year that I highly recommend. And later this month, Best Service has Eduarado Tarilonte's ancient instruments collection, but it unfortunately uses the Yellow Tools Engine.

I sold my Moeck Rothenberg Recorders (SS, S, A, and T -- no B) to a close friend a few years back, after finally picking up the flute. I just didn't enjoy playing Baroque Recorder anymore at that point, compared to Modern Flute. But the sample libraries are not very helpful.

You could go with Sampletekk for a more natural tone but little expression, or Precisionsound for lots of expression but too much baked-in vibrato and other problems of that nature -- it is designed for New Age and Film Scoring vs. authentic playing.

There's been a lot of activity regarding Recorders of late. Even Ethno World has a few somewhat usable ones.

I may just buy another Alto Recorder at some point (my favourite voicing). Technology has improved since the Moeck designs of the 70's/80's. But maybe VSL will surprise us, since there probably is an actual need for these amongst volume customers (unlike Crumhorn).

Dennis Burns is a great person and a talented sampler and developer, and has really stepped up his game these past two years after finally deciding to take the Kontakt platform super-seriously and devote a lot of energy to scripting.

BOB Early Music is old but still quite useful, as are his unusual folk instruments (such as a fretless banjo, which I actually used in a soundtrack and was just what the doctor ordered to distinguish two dueling banjos from each other).

Chances are high that Bolder Sounds will issue new products eventually that take some of these older and smaller sample sets to the next level, as they've already been doing that in conjunction with brand-new releases.

RA is RA. What more do you need to know? That's the product name, so there isn't much else to say on the matter.

Someone understands!!! Yay! lol

nunoise, I'm glad you can see why I feel like it is only appropriate that VSL have some of these offerings. The other libraries mentioned are... workable? But my biggest complaint is that none of these instruments have been sampled with the versatility and quality standards that VSL maintains. RA is by East West. Search "EWQL RA" and you'll find it. The demo's will sound decent, but I should warn that they are not flexible at all. They don't sound bad, but RA is nearly unusable (imo) because of how many errors exist in the library. After using VSL, one would quickly find that RA lacks articulations completely and some of the articulations (bagpipes) aren't even usable as a plausible instrument.

All the more reason why we need this from VSL.

-Sean

I'd love to have VSL recorders and medieval/ancient instruments.   I just had to use another company's recorders on a track and they were o.k., but not as good as VSL instruments.  Also, it would be very good to be able to totally integrate them into Vienna Ensemble.  Though with MIR Pro, it is easy to use an external sound source and place it right on stage next to the VSL instruments - amazing!

I don't agree that these are really unusual sounds to use.  In film scoring and other use, it is fairly common to use ancient or "rare" instruments  like the recorder or lute or others.   For example, remember the great score to the 70s Three Musketeers by Michel Legrand  - that  integrated recorders into the score itself, not just onscreen "period" music.  

I finally got around to comparing all 20 or so of my harpsichord sound sources last night, and VSL's harpsichord came out the clear winner by a country mile; albeit with fewer choices than other libraries in terms of stops, registers, etc.

It is shameful how bad most of the others are -- especially the Realsamples historic libraries. I wish I hadn't wasted my money on those. They are almost completely unusable. The idea behind them is interesting and should provide a LOT of variety, but the execution is sloppy, and scripting is almost non-existant.

The next-best source is Soniccouture's recent Conservatoire Collection (which also includes a Theorbo and a Baroque Guitar). The output is insanely low, and this is coming from someone who generally records at -24 dBFS! That's my main complaint, aside from it being a somewhat limited collection (yet well-recorded and pretty good scripting). It offers a French and Flemish Harpsichord (I generally detest the latter).

Surprisingly, after last week's Version 4 update, Pianoteq is now in the race finally, but for some reason their Grimaldi emulation sounds more like a Blanchet model than the one labeled Blanchet! In some ways this is the most playable one out there, and the timbre is fairly convincing finally. But it offers no variation on 2 x 8', 8' + 4', etc. (unless I missed that on a deeper editing page).

Precisionsound's Blanchet library is also quite good, but closer listening revealed some phasing issues and inconsistencies that ultimately put it a bit behind Soniccouture and Pianoteq. It's a perfectly usable library though, if not soloed (for which purpose I will now use VSL).

Everything else trails FAR FAR behind! That includes the Realsamples collections (English, Spinet, Lute-Harpsichord, Italian, French, Dutch, Dulcitone), EWQLSO, Bolder Sounds (ancient, so no surprise, and their newer libraries are wonderful and even some of their older/smaller ones, so I wouldn't rule them out for future releases), and MachFive (from Acoustisamples, I think). Also even my earlier favourite years ago, which was MOTU Symphonic Instrument. It sounds a bit compressed and phasey compared to newer offerings.

Up until a few years back, I owned a Roland C-80 Digital Harpsichord. It was fun for a few years, but ultimately disappointing as it sounds phasey and compressed as well as a bit baked-in even when "dry", which is typical of Roland. The newer C-30 is a big improvement but I can't see spending $4000 for it, and also only one or two of its models sound good. Maybe the next rev will be "the one".

Anyway, this is all just meant to point towards why I would like to see VSL go for some of the other ancient instruments, as even the somewhat limited Harpsichord library shows that anything they come out with will be miles ahead of anything else currently available.

mhschmieder,

For me, VSL's harpsichord and Spitfire's are the only two I've ever liked. Neither are QUITE to my liking, but everything else out there is subpar (imo).

-Sean