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  • Sean,

    1.Thank you for your understanding.

    2, It's important what you say. Thank you. Now, even though my music is played by the instrumentalists, I want to do mixes with real piano and virtual instruments. Not demos, but as the final results. There is always a place for musicians, but there is also a place for this new approach.
    For this, the playback is very important. But we must spend much time, probably as much time as a musician on his instrument. I'm not ready yet, but with VSL, I approach. Few months ....


  • I have ask Notion a song that uses there "Full orchestra using 3 VE" ...... the answer is : we dont have !!! !

    How can you have "full orchestra using 3 VE" setups if you do not have try it with a "full orchestra" song ?

    I agree it will be great that either VSL talk to APPLE to interface the score of Logic with the articulation changes of VSL, either VSL wrote there own DAW.

    The cheapest and the fastest will be to interface the score of Logic !  but it is many year that users are asking for it, but Apple Logic's team only develop feature that users don't need !!!!!

    Best

    Cyril


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    @Cyril said:

    The cheapest and the fastest will be to interface the score of Logic

    Logic? I can't understand that at all. For VSL to address the needs of most users, they should integrate it with something neither Apple or Windows exclusive. Better integration with Sibelius would make a lot more sense than with Logic. Don't get me wrong, we're probably on the same page with what we want in the end, regarding notation integration with VSL... I just don't think Logic is the proper route.

    Either VSL should work on integration with the most used notation software (Sibelius), the most sample-compatible notation software (Notion) or create their own. Those are the only notation advances that VSL should focus on, imo anyway.

    -Sean


  • Hi Sean

    The problem is the "Engine", looks that Notion engine is quite bad, I have heard it is mono cpu (to check) it is sluggish if you have large score

    I have gave a score to Notion (from the new world of Anton Dvorak) they say to use it I should cut it into pieces !!!

    I dont know about Sibelius engine !

    The "engine" of Logic does not have those problems and it is also a full recording program. So it should be simple to add articulation support to Logic.

    To re-write a Logic equivalent that fully supports VSL will take years of programming 


  • Hello!

    I've been quite successful in developing a personal ruleset for notion, at least I managed to achieve all articulation changes I needed. Notion has a sheer advantage of Sibelius in handling its ruleset, because it can store a ruleset per document, or even have a set of documents share a single ruleset and be uploaded with it.

    All you need to do is create a folder called Rules in the same folder with your document (or documents). Notion will reference this file before referencing its default files. One of the first things declared in the ruleset is to which VST it should apply, so it won't mess with other rulesets that may be in place. For instance, as I still don't own all VSL instruments that I would like, I use Miroslav as a replacement, with the rules being VST dedicated, I can fiddle with my VSL rules as much as I want without messing the rules for Miroslav, which, by the way, are quite decent from default. This dedicated ajdustment is not possible with Sibelius dictionary. For instance I can say that if Miroslav is the VST it should play sforzandos by increasing the velocity by 10, but if the VST is VSL it should look for the sforzando patch instead, in Sibelius is either one or the other.

    Making my VSL presets consistently I also managed to have a good response from Notion for all instruments I have, so, it doesn't matter which VSL instrument I load, the rules are applied equally, so the articulations work. It should work with all instruments, but I cannot do anything more advanced as I don't own very much from VSL, only brass libraries. I'm afraid the complexity would rise if the ruleset had to deal with percussion.

    Notion website has a set of videos explaining custom rules, I followed it and managed to build my own, articulation by articulation, copying and pasting the instructions from the provided pdf. I don't think I should share the ruleset, as it's very specific and quirky, I think you would be better off building your own or actually improving from the VSL SE ruleset, which already handles percussion. Still, I plan to improve my own ruleset after I actually BUY Notion, all this experimentation I was doing happened while I was demoing it, and sadly the demo expired!

    About handling heavy loads, I found that Notion is a crashfest when handling Vienna Instruments instances. At first, when I was doing simple tests with few articulations, I decided to use VI directly because it's simpler, each staff is linked to an instance. With my VSL brass section in place (10 staffs), Notion would crash everytime I attempted to change anything in VI. Using Vienna Ensemble through VST instruments, which creates a new staff which you have to manually create other staffs for each channel, this problem went away, using VE I did not have a single crash. Miroslav on the other hand, would also crash when I had 15 or more instances, but I assume this problem would go away if I had VE PRO and I could load Miroslav in it. The computer I was using is an i5 with 16gb RAM, which is not stellar but should fare better than that.

    The problem is, I was away for a week and didn't work on my Notion projects again before the demo expired and I didn't manage to test a score that was, besides heavy in the VST department, also several pages long. I believe the problems would reappear.


  • Tralen, I lucked out big-time as I got it for free from Notion during their promo period. Sadly, I haven't utilized it very well but for one drawback.

    I want to load things MY WAY! lol I am going to create rules as I have designed a from the scratch template, keyswitches, humanize, and anything else you can imagine, all in VE. With only 4 midi ch's in Notion3 I have to save things in sections to create a notion template... then I'll have to create my custom notion setup how you referenced. I am embarking on that very task tomorrow. :(

    However, with that in mind... I'm concerned. You said it is a crashfest with VI, but that you will use VI directly because it's simpler...? I'm lost. Did you mean VE one of those times? Should I do VE or VI? I want my own custom instruments in the end as I want to create one for Fanfare trumpets, etc.

    -Sean


  • Ignore my post... Somehow I just overlooked half of what you typed. I know, I'm crazy... but still. I have my answer, lol Thanks!

    -Sean


  • Well, if I try to balance all the interventions, the best for now is to stay Sibelius 6. 2 (and Pro-Tools in my case) and wait for developments. The good thing is that have good tools, although you always want to improve. The other advantage is that they are there, known and controlled. In addition, VSL handles very well integrated with Sibelius. While working with that.

    Thank you all.


  • iscorefilm, I believe you already understood what I'm going to explain. I used VI because the setup was simpler (one instance per staff), but Notion failed when handling a large number of instances. When switching to VE, setup becomes more work intensive, having to setup the extra staffs and assigning midi-channels for each, but the crashes went away.

    Now what I'm failing to understand is why you are using the midi-outs to communicate with the VST. Are you opening VE as standalone and then routing the midi to it? This should not be necessary. In "Score Setup", instead of going to External MIDI, go to VST Instruments, and choose Vienna Ensemble.This will create a staff with a VE instance linked to it, then you can create the extra staffs and distribute the 16 midi-channels. Make sure that your ruleset is configure to "plugin" instead of "midi-out", the plugin ID for VE is 1448299589.


  • No, I understand all that. I worded it wrong. I called it midi, even though it's essential 8 'internal midi' channels to the VST.

    I want more midi channels so I can keep VE running with my template loaded... this way I could go from Cubase to Notion and back when I need. Sadly I can't do that though. I know VE Pro will let people preserve an instance, but sadly I don't have it yet. [:'(] Soon, but not yet.

    Although, I still doubt whether VE Pro will solve this problem also... as in Notion, I'd have a few instances of VEP, will the preserve function keep all of them preserved? Can I then tie them to Cubase after? I don't know. But I can't use the actual midi ports cause I have LoopBe30 installed on my system, because I needed at least 5 at first. No my template uses 9 midi ports (and is starting to grow again, lol)

    Thanks for the VE ID.... that will definately help me, I'm sure of it. Sorry to pester you, but do you know anything about the VEP preserve bit? Any other thoughts that might help? 

    Thanks!

    Sean


  • Sorry, I don't own VE PRO either and I'm waiting until I get a reasonable amount of free time before I demo it.

    But, I don't understand why would you need to actually preserve the instances, won't saving and loading the viframes accomplish the same? Are you planning on working on the two programs concurrently? I'm having trouble understanding your pipeline.


  • On a separate note, Notion released an update, which means the program isn't dead!

    Here are the release notes from their site.

    NOTION 3.2 Update Release Notes:

    3.2.9925
    OSX Lion Compatiblity
    Fixes and Enhancements to Sample Library
    Support of New Sound Kits
    Compatibility with Progression for iPad
    Addition of iPad/Mobile Distortion VST
    Guitar Pro File Import (versions 3-5)
    UI Fixes and Updates
    New Score Layout, Page Margin and Printing Options
    Fixed lyrics tool to avoid collisions
    Score rendering fixes including TAB notation improvements
    Delete function fixed for TAB staffs
    Fixed playback of muted open notes on fretted instruments
    Arpeggio playback timing fixed
    Note on/Note off message timing fixed for VSTi plugins
    Fixed playback of Fermatas and Cesuras in NTempo Mode
    NTempo Vamp issues resolved
    Fixed false entrance after repeat bar
    Fixed Gliss Note Off in NTempo
    Made Sounds Update an optional process
    Importing of Brass and Woodwind sections with XML

    This does give hope for the future!


  • Yes it would accomplish the same thing, but with a few drawbacks. 1- loading time. I have to wait for my template to load each time; not horrible, but inconvenient when 'ideas' are running about in my head. 2- Different templates. I have 1 master template with everything in it. For Notion3 I have to have 8 mini-templates to accomplish the same thing. Load 1 template file for cubase, load 8 files for Notion3. It's a bit absurd in the end, as I see it anyway. 3- That's still only 8 midi ports essentially. I use 9 in my template. So now, I have to reduce my template. It's not a horrible problem, A limited template will still work for Notion3, but I'm not saying it's my favorite restriction either.

    To me, if they simply allowed for as many midi ports as most software programs do, it wouldn't have been a problem. I just worry that I'm going to take the time to build a new template scheme for Notion, only to find that VSL releases a VSL-DAW or something, making all my efforts here a waste of time, Not good! lol

    -Sean


  • And this version sounds great. It's hard to have an objective view. Notion3 that this orientation is as perfect. In its implementation, in practice, I do not know. It would take a month's work and comparison, and I do not have the time. Overall, according to users, Sibelius 6.2 is still higher. That's true. But if Notion3 still evolving, with its customers, I think the composers would choose. There are some well thought choe at the base of Notion3.


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    @Tralen said:

    On a separate note, Notion released an update, which means the program isn't dead!

    Here are the release notes from their site.

    NOTION 3.2 Update Release Notes:

    3.2.9925
    OSX Lion Compatiblity

    .....................

    This does give hope for the future!

    Hello

    Where did you get this.

    The version to download is 3.1.277

    It does not say 64 bit and multiproc support !!!

    Best

    Cyril


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    @Cyril said:

    Where did you get this.

    The version to download is 3.1.277

    It does not say 64 bit and multiproc support !!!

    I saw on their sight, the current version now is 3.2.9927 for Notion3 - however - 3.1.277 is the latest version for Notion3 SLE. I'm fairly sure that this is the cause of the confusion.

    -Sean

    P.S. As to what features are in this update... I am not sure. I thought I saw a list somewhere, but the list wasn't very impressive. To me, there may be hope, but I'm not sure that this is enough of an indicator. If Notion does produce a serious update or Notion4, then I will be pleased. Until then...


  • Claude,

    J'aimerais prendre contact avec toi !

    Je suis à Québec la ville...

    Au plaisir


  • Je suis à Métis sur Mer. Tu peux m'écrire directement sur cmb@claudemarcbourget.com

    Au plaisir,

    cmb


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