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My only point is that it's not the kind of music to make a comparison with VSL strings.
Working composers need to decide what libraries to buy. If they are writing "epic" music and that is what's paying the bills, it's good to have that comparison. If vienna isn't good at a particular style, it's good to have examples that illustrate that.
@dagmarpiano said:
But then a pretentious pseud could use this argument to make himself feel better about being unpopular when the real reason is that he's not that good.
that is true - it is done all the time and especially nowadays at Universities, where someone can write sheer musical nonsense and, as long as it is atonal, be proclaimed a genius by people afraid of appearing stupid. Not that all atonality is nonsense - just 95% of it.
However I still don't like this idea of totally caving in to commercialism and then doing your serious work on the side. The two need to be integrated which I know is not easy. Maybe the greatest example of integrating artistry with money-making is Hitchcock. But he was a unique case in that he naturally thrived in the genre of thrillers and therefore simply had to do a good one commercially and it would have artistic quality. For example the one I am always harping on - Vertigo. He was actually indulging his own psychological obsessions with that, yet it is one of the great artistic films of all time. Another example is Picasso - he became quite wealthy and was the opposite of the "starving artist" but is considered the greatest painter of the 20th century (though not my favorite - to me the greatest 20th century painter is de Chirico who was a schizoid proto-surrealist).
For me this (off-topic) disclaimer of "yeah, I know it's cliched, it's right for what it is though for the target audience and I have my serious side too, I pay the bills with this you know etc." is utter crap, and the attitude of someone that should never have dared become a professional composer - even if they find people today that are willing to pay for his output!! (just like an assassin should really change careers even if his services are in some demand)
This current Zimmer-style SHYT that most every clone is excreting, then wrapping it up nicely in the best possible production library or real orchestra while it's still hot and steamy, straight from the Anemato/Cinescamples algorithms, is good enough reason for the skies to open and drown us all again - the Lord can only take so much lobotomy. It could happen you know... Desist while there's still time...
Let me remind you that there is a way to pay the bills without inflicting pain on everyone's ears and turning our stomachs: WIlliams, Morricone, Goldsmith, Barry, Horner, Shore, Grusin, Elfman, Silvestri, Young, Newman, Kamen, etc. - I'm specifically naming people that have had their own musical personalities to a great degree, and who still, or until recently, compose/d 'functional' music, appropriate to the action and requirements of the films they were underscoring, music very much alive, instead of the obligatory laboratory aural poison that forms the deluge of film-music today for the most part.
What? The public's going to walk out on William's or Horner's, opening titles because there's no chugga-chugga-chugga? Please.... Appropriate to the genre.... As if these composers named above never touched on all genres while managing not to make us puke all over our pop-corn.... Just admit to giftlessness and stop writing, will you people? The least you can do is desist from "rationalizing" it for us.
It's both hilarious and lamentable that people who develop and/or buy products specifically designed for musical cripples, offer opinions regarding the quest for instrumental realism, when there is nothing that is real in their music.
@Errikos said:
...straight from the Anemato/Cinescamples algorithms...
You seem to single out CS quite a bit, but you really give the impression that you have no idea what is actually in their libraries.
@Errikos said:
...straight from the Anemato/Cinescamples algorithms...
You seem to single out CS quite a bit, but you really give the impression that you have no idea what is actually in their libraries.
I don't know how I give that impression, but just in case... I actually know what there is in their libraries from their own videos. One finger plays a whole orchestra chord, right? Another finger(!) in Hollywoodwinds plays the woodwind parts of The Raiders rhythm, or the Flying Theme's rhythm, no? Properly instrumentated, voiced, and spaced for the cripple's uses, whatever those may be...
I believe that the VSL is the best, because it is the most flexible for the most uses. If you're out for only one library, I believe that should be it. It will do the most convincing Bach, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, and Williams at the same time. Which library is as versatile on its own? But if you don't do music (if you do Hans for example), maybe there are other libraries specifically designed for that kind of vomit.
@Dietz: I've said all I had to say, thanks.
@Errikos said:
I don't know how I give that impression, but just in case... I actually know what there is in their libraries from their own videos. One finger plays a whole orchestra chord, right? Another finger(!) in Hollywoodwinds plays the woodwind parts of The Raiders rhythm, or the Flying Theme's rhythm, no? Properly instrumentated, voiced, and spaced for the cripple's uses, whatever those may be...
Those sorts of things are a tiny fraction of what they offer (and the one part I don't use), the vast majority of their libraries are individual samples for composing original melodies just like VSL (and I'd say they'd be just fine for all those composers you listed, in a some cases probably better than anything VSL offers). And VSL offers things like canned runs and trills, right?
I just think it's tacky to use a site like this for wholesale bashing of other companies, and I'm disappointed that VSL often seems to tolerate it.
@Errikos said:
I don't know how I give that impression, but just in case... I actually know what there is in their libraries from their own videos. One finger plays a whole orchestra chord, right? Another finger(!) in Hollywoodwinds plays the woodwind parts of The Raiders rhythm, or the Flying Theme's rhythm, no? Properly instrumentated, voiced, and spaced for the cripple's uses, whatever those may be...
Those sorts of things are a tiny fraction of what they offer (and the one part I don't use), the vast majority of their libraries are individual samples for composing original melodies just like VSL (and I'd say they'd be just fine for all those composers you listed, in a some cases probably better than anything VSL offers). And VSL offers things like canned runs and trills, right?
I just think it's tacky to use a site like this for wholesale bashing of other companies, and I'm disappointed that VSL often seems to tolerate it.
Well "those sort of things" are what infuriate me, and not whatever else they do. If a pharmaceutical company produces the best range of pain-killers, vaccines, etc. but also produces a line of carcinogenic drug that it pushes with the rest of its product-line, I am against that company. if the rest of the library is what the VSL will be ten years from now I don't care, and I did not refer to that aspect of the company did I? You're seriously comparing the completely generic major scale runs or trills that VSL offers with E.T. and The Raiders of Cinescamples?!
As far as what's tacky, each to his own of course, but I find your disappointment regarding VSL's tolerance for others' company-bashing posts puzzling, when I am sure you have observed their equal tolerance of people's praise for rival products on this forum, as well as their tolerance of themselves getting bashed by their own customers.
I appreciate Dan's maintenance of good humour, it is certainly your company I was referring to, and even if your heart was in the right place (i.e. giving competent people a box of quick tools), I'm greatly concerned as to what the future will bring, for these 'noises' and 'shrieks' that you mention (but also 'ostinati' etc.), I don't want them to grow into something even more substantial. Because, let's face it, most of your buyers couldn't notate those 'noises' and 'shrieks' if their lives depended upon it. I am (just in case anyone's missed it) against fraud in general, and when a charlatan presents a demo/score to a director, where less than half the notes have been composed by that charlatan, it makes me crazy...
Everybody: If you can notate it / MIDI it, do it. If you can't, IT'S NOT YOUR MUSIC.
@Dietz: Now I've said all I had to say. [;)]
@mike connelly said:
[...]I just think it's tacky to use a site like this for wholesale bashing of other companies, and I'm disappointed that VSL often seems to tolerate it.
Mike, don't be unfair. We tolerate a lot of praise for other companies' products here (even "competing" ones), and we will tolerate some "bashing", too (even when it is against our own work). Apart from that, I've asked for moderation just a few postings before.
The only reason why I didn't close this thread up to now is the simple fact that we try to avoid any unnecessary restrictions in our forum (...again: even if the basic tenor of a topic is against our own products).
Well I think it's been a lively debate anyway. I've shifted my position from when I began, in the face of such a strong defence of VSL I've appreciated that although extra velocity layers, more round robins and many portamento layers at different speeds and dynamics would be a nice improvement to see from VSL's strings, at the same time VSL do so many more detailed things than others that the library is also superior in many ways.
And... I've also had a nice warming from Errikos's mighty flame, for which I am truly thankful.
An epic chugga chugga Amen to that!
It is not a question of competition or what product sounds better... All I can say is that the VSL DVD-Libraries were recorded many years ago, but everything sounds still up-to-date. I am also using East West SO Platinum, Symphobia and also Cinesample Libraries. If I got a customs order for a quick production with low budget, I am using low budget and time-saving libraries like Cinesamples, Symphobia or EastWest, but when I score for our theatres, high budget orders or for Films, then I automatically compete with a real orchestra, so then I have to use VSL to reach the best result close to real orch-players. OK, you never replace a Real Orchestra, but in my case I am mixing VSL with real players; believe me this is the best situation for such or similar productions. Especially the possibilities of the VI Pro are amazing comparing with human players and I don't want to miss it. Yes, it needs a lot of time to configure every track and sequence exactly, but the result is still amazing. I am very sure that VSL will create a similar string product like DIMENSION BRASS, but we talk about 10 or 14 Violin players, I think that would be a hard task. I tested East West Hollywood Strings and they still have the same bad up- and down-bow as in Platinum before. OK, you can say in the final mix no one is listening to an exact played down-bow or a clean marcato, but the string quality itself is the point. Newer Disney Films will be partly produced with East-West products, yeah and so it sounds, it is a question of a budget and contracts; in my opinion and my recording experience with human players VSL is closer than every other product I am using and I have tested!
Finally again, it is a question of what you want to do. I don't like such discussions. It's a bit beside the real point.
@William said:
dagmarpiano,
thanks for being so cordial and friendly in your replies. That is an unusual experience.
Thanks William. I did get initially ruffled by Errikos mocking my "great" composers. I even woke up in the night really annoyed, the night after reading that, thinking of a thousand angry replies. But in the morning I just realised I was being protective towards them because we have a good team and the composers have put in a huge amount of time and care while having to display a lot of faith in my direction (I couldn't pay much at all, just a promise of royalties later on, which thankfully is working out well for them). By "great" I know it sounds like Great Composer as in Bach and Beethoven but I was being colloquial. I meant, they are composers and they're great people and I personally think they are very talented at what they do, having rejected many tracks by otherwise good writers who happen to not understand the genre very well.
So anyway, apart from that moment, I can see that it's all good natured underneath the fiery rhetoric, and I think it's right to be passionate and heartfelt about your values, especially if you're a composer and music is your heart and soul.
This is becoming an interesting, and relatively long forum thread, and yet... VSL has not blinked once to indicate that New VSL Strings are in the works, or will be released in the near future.
Hopefully they are seriously listening to our requests, and are developing a New Strings Library to complement the current line-up of Strings they currently offer, or maybe it's already something they have been working on, and is very close to be announced.
Should I be optimistic ?
Strongly agree with most of the remarks made here. In terms of shaping the fine points of string playing, VSL strings are still unsurpassed in my experience. However, combining them with other libraries seems to be the way to bring about truly high-end realism and compensate for sporadic "thin" sound (f.e. I am just in the process of getting some pretty spectacular results with the VSL-HSO-MIR combination...). With all combinations of this sort the following rule seems to apply: you have to use the VSL strings as the main bulk, and "melt" the other library to this main bulk. The other way around tends to produce inferior results.
If we extend that argument, everything I would ask a player to improvise, per my instructions and direction, will mean that I would have to include that player as co-composer. I occasionally hire someone to provide a part that I would not provide myself, such as a wild saxophone solo, and I am not interested in notating it (which would only put the cart before the horse), the chops of the player I'm interested in is in no way available to me from any library, and it might be that I'm looking for personal qualities that I know about from that person, or specify work I know from other particulars and will indicate: 'do this, here'. I am personally a virtuoso on my own instrument but I'm damned if I can play a soprano sax or something, so I pick someone that can do the part. It isn't his composition, it is mine. EG: there is one album I wrote a number of compositions for - I have the score in my satchel - but the producer was the drummer and felt it was appropriate to stick his name on as co-composer for supplying the drum part. Which was a part I could have done, and the drum contribution only follows the structure of the composition anyway. He is wrong to call himself a composer on these pieces I think.@Errikos said:
I'm greatly concerned as to what the future will bring, for these 'noises' and 'shrieks' that you mention (but also 'ostinati' etc.), I don't want them to grow into something even more substantial. Because, let's face it, most of your buyers couldn't notate those 'noises' and 'shrieks' if their lives depended upon it. I am (just in case anyone's missed it) against fraud in general, and when a charlatan presents a demo/score to a director, where less than half the notes have been composed by that charlatan, it makes me crazy...
Everybody: If you can notate it / MIDI it, do it. If you can't, IT'S NOT YOUR MUSIC.
There are many real-life instances I can make the self-same argument behind. You appear to have the opinion that music is composed in a kind of vacuum and the 'composer' is a God; and anyone that doesn't follow this need to micromanage every detail isn't a composer. Extend that some more and you should demand of yourself that you play every instrument in the orchestra, or at least every roll on a drum must be something you can 'midi'... every trill, every ornamental detail, every gesture must be written out as it was imagined perfectly by The Composer God (Baroque performance practice rather refutes you on this, does it not?) In The Beginning...
NB: for instance, a buzz roll on a snare isn't available to the piano roll composer unless at least a start of the roll is provided in the library. It isn't possible to achieve the effect otherwise. I am an experienced percussionist and am not THE LEAST interested in doing more work than I have to, to realize a part. VSL addresses this for composers on one level, Animato addresses it on another. EG: I have used more than once *loops* in VSL Percussion, 'Thunder Sheet' that provided me with the perfect effect, that wasn't exactly my preconception but did a lot more and enriched the piece. Following your arguments, I should have shot myself in the foot before proceeding, behind the idea 'I am grander (ie., need to be in my own mind) than anything anyone else can provide' and come away with something less.
So, your argument is shown, by resorting to the real world, to be of the fallacy, reduction to the absurd. You have a straw man you're leaning on as well, 'loops users', which you will have forced on anyone that doesn't find your requirements to be theirs particularly, in this regard.
You have an opinion you state as if a fact, 'most people that would buy this library are incompetent'. You have that as a premise going in. Your premise is supported only by your opinion and both are circular to each other. I looked closely at Animato and I understand there are a number of things I won't have thought of by particulars but given a context might be very useful and inspiring in the creation of a composition. You will eschew any/all of this in favor of your prejudice (and what might appear to be a pretty grandiose delusion of what a composer does, or 'must do'), and impoverish your creativity accordingly I think.
@noldar12 said:
One of the greatest things about Vienna is the very fact that it is not "Hollywood". One can do so much more with it in so many different styles, compared to the orchestral offerings of the "noble competition". From former experience (years ago) as an orchestral musician, to me, VSL, more than any other library sounds the closest to a real symphony.
The stylistical flexibility of the VSL really is unique. Almost anything can be achieved, depending on one's production skills and sound aesthetics.
