@Another User said:

I mean seriously......where am I wrong? I thought VEPro on a slave was supposed to do the work. If it behaves like this, the slave concept is pointless. That's not any different than trying to use it in the main computer. Kontakts memory server does as well. I just trade the clicks and pops of VEPro for Kontakts' CPU spikes

I use dozens of times more instruments than you describe and typically in 4 instances (x4 'threads per instance') on my MacPro octocore with Cubase on the master, a MacPro quad - and Cubase is ~4 times slower than Logic on a Mac - with samples/buffer at 128, or in a really loaded project 192, with no audio breakage. Sometimes a huge project (by my standards, not a symphonic scale kit) in a full mix scenario forces me to 256 but, with the current build of VE Pro I haven't had to exceed that to my recollection. This is using the x2 buffers in VE Pro, which, if it adds any latency it's negligible here, owing to the latency compensation of VE Pro.

If you are using KMS in x64 kernel, DON'T, there is no call for it. I can't say it's the source of your trouble by any means, but that exists to expand 32-bit operation.  If you're getting this poor of performance and Activity Monitor is looking less than stressed, it looks like a network problem to me.

Is your IP fixed or dynamic? I had a lot of trouble until someone hipped me to this, do not use a dynamic IP for this purpose. When that was put to me, I had no idea what it meant... but my performance troubles began to vanish once I'd fixed an IP address for the master and for the slave.

Thanks for the assistance.

I'm sure my network is set to dynamic as that's how it's been set for my ISP. So I'll check in to that. I can see how this would effect a slave computer setup. But would this effect performance for just a single computer setup? Because I get the same poor performance using just the 8 core, and like you said of your performance......I know it should be capable of a good amount of usage just on it's own. I certainly have no performance issues in any other respect. Many times I forget to move the buffer back higher after using some virtual instruments and still do a huge mix with no problem.

If by "KMS" you mean Kontakt Memory Server, it's turned off in the preferences. Also, the 8 core is one of the early models and will not boot into 64 bit. So everything is 32 bit. One more reason I wanted to do VEP.

I'll try changing network settings and report back.

I don't know if it would affect local host mode, not fixing the IP - the IP changing is the IP changing tho...

I've used VE Pro on the single machine as 'local host' only to reconfigure stuff such as Kontakt from regular plugins into VE Pro frames and I had not real good performance on my octocore [which is the nehalem chip, with 24 GB RAM], so I can tell you that with Cubase, VE Pro on a slave made a difference I couldn't even estimate. But, per that poor performance, if dynamic IP affects local host, that would explain a lot, as I didn't know anything about it when I reconfigured those projects.

I tried changing the address to fixed. It made no difference in any situation.......either single machine or slave. I'm completely baffled. I guess at least to my knowledge it seems like if there were performance issues that would cause this, they would cause problems elsewhere. But I can run huge sessions with very intense plugins that don't cause the 8 core to break a sweat, even at a low buffer. And other people with similar setups can apparently do better with multiple instances of VEP than I cam with just 1 and 1 track of Kontakt.. I'm just completely lost as to what the difference is with my setup.

I was just thinking - you said you were having problems (CPU spikes) with Kontakt even when it was hosted directly in the sequencer so with that in mind, I'd suggest you try hosting a different plugin in VEP and see how that goes. It could be Kontakt that's causing the problem.

Also I suggest you do all this on a local server, not a networked one, just so we can discount network problems.

Thanks Martin,

I had actually came to somewhat that idea myself. I guess I've just sort of had the attitude that, since the libraries I already own are for Kontakt, that using anything else is pointless. However, I suppose at this point I'd just like to narrow down the trouble no matter what the culprit is.

I really thought I had stumbled onto something awhile ago, even though I wasn't sure how it would apply to just using a local host. I realized that not only did I need to use a fixed address, I had to go deeper into the advanced settings and change the 100Tbase setting to 1000Tbase. When this did not work I realized my cables were old Cat 5. I got a Cat 6 cable and viola!......Gigabit connection established........directly between computers; no router. I even turned the other ethernet connection on the 8 core offjust so there was no internet or confusion. Just the Macs networked direct.

However, launching everything once again brought me no joy. It seems to have changed nothing. I suppose I'll try someting other than Kontakt next. The only other AU or VST software that I have of any consequence is the Epic Orchestra. I've not used it yet since it came with my recent VEP purchase. So it's a bit daunting trying to find my way around a new program while troubleshooting.

As for CPU spikes in Kontakt, this seems to be a widely documented problem especially with Pro Tools. However, I get no further with Logic or Reaper. Maybe the problem IS Kontakt. But I read where other users are doing fine with it and my problems start long before I reach the size usage they claim to get on setups similar or identical to mine. I just can't accept that an 8 core Mac isn't powerful enought to run a modest instance of Kontakt with 16 orchestral instruments loaded and only 4-6 midi channels playing out of those 16 at any given time. I CAN accept that there's an issue somewhere that I need to work out. I'm just completely baffled where else to look for that issue. And I've got work coming up soon. I'm going to need to sort this out.......

I tried Epic Orchestra and I definately get further with it than I do Kontakt. While I still wasn't getting what it seems like I should be getting based on many other users reported usage, I've had to look at the differences in what I may be using compared to others. While I'm only trying to run a modest 16 Kontakt instruments, they're all large sections of orchestra and brass. I feel like many of the users who are getting large instances and usage are using things that are a lot more interrmitten as far as polyphony and notes. For example, drum kits rarely if ever hit more 3-4 notes (drums) simultaneously. Pianos are anywhere from 1-6 note chords, mostly. Loops, grooves and such are well........you get the idea. Orchestrations however get pretty heavy as far as polyphony. Especially when done to realistic standards where there are tracks per instrument or section.

I realized that 2 of the string and brass sounds I had been using had convolution reverb settings enabled in Kontakt. Turning those reverbs off gave me a HUGE gain in power. This also seems to relieve some of the CPU spiking problems when using Kontakt directly in PT. In fact, I really see no benefit to using VEP in local machine mode if Kontakt continues to behave on it's own in PT. However, this has me excited again at the prospect of putting a 4 core PC into use that's been sitting idle for a year. That coupled with some experimentation as far as how intensive the sounds that I use are may finally get me the orchestra I've been dreaming of.........where I can just import tracks from a template that are set to use the sounds I like and use frequently and go to work!

I'm hesitant to say my problem has been solved. I'm going to see how much further I get and post back here later.

I would advise you to distribute the load to the cores better than stacking 16 sections in one kontakt multi. Think of VE Pro as that multi, it's better suited for the job. I use the convolutions in kontakt, and fx in there, all the time, btw.

Your assumptions about polyphony with a drum library or a piano aren't really right I think. Polyphony builds up with either, sus pedaling, cymbals ringing... polyphony a definite issue for BFD2 users that don't have enough muscle... I've had to max the polyphony in VI Pro using a piano owing to the frequent sus pedal down in the part... I don't know if assuming the people getting good performance as lighter users is going to help you conceptualize here. I use some real monsters.

I kinda doubt polyphony is per se the culprit anyway, but how you are managing it is something you might look at (IE: using one instance of Kontakt, vs distributing the load) You present the kontakt usage as "modest", but 16 sections in one multi isn't particularly what I'd guess from that term. In any case, I bet if you made 8 separate kontakt instantiations per VE Pro instance, using 2 instances - in VE Pro preferences assign 4 or 8 'threads' (8 assuming hyperthreading = 16 logical cores) per instance - you'll find more joy.

 Three big advantages in using VEP in local mode, rather than just loading in PT:

1. PT is 32bit, so you have a very low memory limit for loading samples.
2. RTAS is the most inefficient format on the planet when it comes to using samples. VEP will allow you to use a much bigger template.
3. When you start using big templates, you can keep them loaded when changing projects. If you have to re-load each time, it is very frustrating.

DG

@stereotype said:

I realized that 2 of the string and brass sounds I had been using had convolution reverb settings enabled in Kontakt. Turning those reverbs off gave me a HUGE gain in power. This also seems to relieve some of the CPU spiking problems when using Kontakt directly in PT.

Glad to hear that things are at least going in the right direction! Let us know how things go as you test further.

M

@stereotype said:

I've tried every configuration of settings I can come up with including a slave computer (dual core Mac w/ 6GB RAM/where am I wrong? I thought VEPro on a slave was supposed to do the work.

Hi all,

I had to get away from this for awhile and do other things. But now it's time to try and sort this mess out again. To the best of my noob ability, I've tried to follow the suggestions already given. I now have a Quad core PC running Windows XP that can be put into use. However, as someone previously suggested, I should try and get better performance using VEP locally on the 8 core Mac and therefore rule out networking issues.

For clarity sake, bare with me as I go back over where I currently am. I'm desperatly confused here. So have patience with me. And yes, I've studied the manual and have the most current versions downloaded and installed.

Mac 8 Core - 8GB RAM - Kontakt 4.2.2  - Pro Tools 9.03 (native) - 002r I/O - Yamaha S90 (used as a usb midi comtroller to the Mac)

Basically, my big problem is I can not stop the CPU glitches using Kontakt at anything under a 512 buffer setting, which is completely unplayable, especially for drum sounds. I realize I'm having trouble grasping the usage of VEP. As suggested, I tried installing multiple instances of Kontakt on multiple channels of 1 instance of VEP......rather than my previous method of 1 Kontakt with all the various sounds running within that. I really see no difference. Also, I'm sure I'm confused about the preference settings in the server as they apply to "threads". But in the manual, it suggests that a setting of 1 would be nice for an 8 Core setup. But I've tried it all. No matter what I do, the CPU runs at over 50% at under a 512 buffer for just 3 channels with Kontakt installed; 1 sound in each Kontakt.This is with the mutlicore settings in Kontakt off. Although there isn't any difference with it on. I also get this terrible performance using the Vienna Epic Strings. And I also get the same terrible performance using the same things respectively in the quad core PC.

So could someone be so kind as to suggest, based on my setup, how they would use this? I've just never had this level of confusion and frustration before. Being the same on both computers, I feel I'm doing something wrong and not having hardware issues. But at this point I'm desperate and open to all suggestions.

I had the same issue. Buffer at 512, it plays ok but at 256 it's unplayable.

What I did, go to 'Playback Engine' put the buffer below 512 and set the 'Host Processors' to anything but 8. 

That should solve it. It worked for me but I haven't done a heavy loaded session to test what number is best. At least not 8 processors.

Hope this helps.

You should set the Pro Tools processors setting to at most one less than the actual cores available.

Yes. PT always runs best when set to 1 less processor than the number of CPU. I've tried all settings though just for the heck of it. Everything from 1-8. No difference.

As for drives, they're streaming from an internal SATA. 7200RPM dedicated to only the samples. System on it's own internal drive and any other audio on it's own dedicated drive. There's a fourth drive internally setup as a BootCamp drive (runs Windows on the Mac). I tried taking that out just out of curiosity. No difference.

ok. you say that using regular plugins works much better. You are preferring to distribute nearly all the cores to PT, correct? So the plugins are part of PT's workload, they would be using the cores I suppose...

as opposed to: You aren't giving VE Pro any muscle to do the work. If it is true that PT requires all but one core, you're SOL with VEP on the same machine, I think.

here's why I get such good performance I think: I have VEP on an octocore slave and I distribute all the cores available to it. 4 instances, 4 'threads', which means cores, per each. I am distributing the cores as evenly as possible and I'm quite deliberate about it.

You are giving VEP 1 core and the rest to PT? 

 I don't know as I have never tried allowing VEP just 1 core with all the others in use, but it seems like a bad idea to me. When I did run as local host, I gave VEP more cores than Cubase, quad core machine, 8 logical threads, I might give Cubase 2 of them. I would never have thought to give more cores to a sequencer, that isn't the idea of VEP I think.

No. I can run PT at any core setting. In fact, at the point I'm doing VEP, many times I'm only using a stereo 2 mix as the only audio to do midi programming to. So I have no trouble setting PT to say, only 1 core; leaving 7 open. Someone else added the comment that PT runs best set at 1 core less than the number of processors. In actuallity, PT runs fine on any number of cores (respective to the what's needed for track/plugin usage). So my comment about PT and cores were in response to that. My point is, that ANY PT core setting and ANY VEP setting made accordingly gives me no different performance. I still hit the same wall at CPU spikes, clicks and garbles dropping the PT buffer below 512 and using 1 instance of VEP withonly a few channels and Kontakt on each. I get vitually the same results using Reaper or Logic, instead of PT. I get the same results if using VEP locally or networked, with either the 8 core Mac or the quad core PC as slave or master. So I feel I've got some computer issue somewhere, but honestly, I'm just dumbfounded and don't know what else to try.

I have seen it said more than once that PT is notoriously inefficient for a samples-based M.O., BUT -

I would think logically that nothing you do changes anything at all indicates a problem that isn't software-related.

I had horrible issues, spiking at any latency with Kontakt as a plugin in Cubase when I moved to my intel mac, which I blamed on my MOTU 828mkii... drivers were reported to be problematic and I saw similar issues reported; and so I bought an RME card, for instance. I think I was right.

@stereotype said:

 in the manual, it suggests that a setting of 1 would be nice for an 8 Core setup. But I've tried it all. No matter what I do, the CPU runs at over 50% at under a 512 buffer for just 3 channels with Kontakt installed; 1 sound in each Kontakt.