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  4. Using Flux's "IRCAM Spat" with VSl samples.

  • Using Flux's "IRCAM Spat" with VSl samples.

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    Dear VSL users,

    As many of you, i am using Altiverb to spatialize VSl sounds and achieve a decent emulation of an orchestra spacing in a room. I recently discovered this: http://www.fluxhome.com/products/plug_ins/ircam_spat and tried the demo. It blew me! Altiverb almost seems obsolete and for what i've tried out, it is very convincing. And, from what i saw from MIR demos, i don't find it as efficient as Spat. Spat is also very light on CPU. Of course, my demo version is limited. Also, another good point, this is developed with the technology of IRCAM, which is a good thing on a technological point of view. Not liking the music of what comes out of there is another thing. For those who don't know IRCAM, they created MaxMSP.

    So, i wanted to know if any of you users had bought this "Spat" plugin and how do you feel about it with VSL? Because before i go to the buying step, i'd love to have others comment on this.

    Thanks,

    Aleksi.
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     Hi Aleksi,

    thanks for the link. I didn't know anything about IRCAM spat before, but to be honest to me this website has a deterrent effect, because this room simulation seems a very sophisticated tool. I'm a happy MIR user, for me not only the spatial impression is  v e r y  convincing, the very easy handling is for more musician than technican like me the huge advantage. As far as you are using VSL - librarys, MIR is tailor-made for these. 

    Why did you watch the MIR video only and did'nt try out it as you did with ircam spat? If you do, you can get a objectiv comparison. So, sorry, it 's not the answer of your question, but maybe you didn't know the possibility of a MIR try out, so I wanted to give you this hint. 

    (AFAIK the MIR Demo version is not limited.)

    Best

    Frank
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    You may have got the wrong impression from the MIR demos, I don't know, but the use of MIR is extremely efficient.  In fact, it is totally simple to use, because it is simply a concert hall where you place the instruments wherever you want.  It does everything else that previously you needed great mixing expertise for. 

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    Well the main reason i haven't tried the MIR demo is that i work on Mac, so i'm excluded from that possibility at this time. Plus, from what i understood, it seems to be a stand-alone only application, and i prefer the plug-in system. Also, i doesn't seem to be able to work with audio files (at least, i couldn't find the info) and since i mix real instruments such as strings, with samples, well i can't get my share, unfortunately.

    IRCAM Spat looks much more evolved and more efficient, but its more complicated and twice the price. That's why i was curious to hear from someone that may have used the full version using mostly VSL samples. Because i know lots of people here a in the search of plugins such as MIR and Spat, and this could benefit all of us.
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    Welcome Aleksi,

    MIR Pro will be available next spring. It will work on a Mac, will integrate into any existing DAW like a plug-in (or work stand-alone), plus quite a few other additional features. Both MIR and MIR Pro will remain to be the only mixing-, spatialization- and reverberation tool that "knows" the input signals to some extent.

    BTW - to compare the "efficiency" of an algorithmic system like Spat with a concept MIR's (which relies on thousands of impulse responses from real spaces) is a bit like comparing apples and pears.

    Kind regards,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    MIR may be efficient, but it has one huge drawback; you have to run the MIDI session at the same time, because it hosts the samples. This means that for me is unusable, as my machine can't cope at any buffer. Obviously this will not be a problem with MIR Pro, as I'll be able to send audio into MIR, but as that's not available until the Spring (and that is an estimated date), I can see why people, especially Mac users, are looking for other options.

    Personally, whilst Altiverb is good, there are a few real caveats, and the stage positioning is not that great IMO. I will certainly be downloading the demo of Spat/Splat?Phat, whatever it is called, and giving it a whirl. THis doesn't mean that I don't luuuuurve VSL any more though. [A]

    DG
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    Thanks for the welcome and the word Dietz. Good to know MIR is coming along for Mac. I understand your point of view. From mine, i use Altiverb and already achieve a good level of what i am searching for, but i'm still not there. MIR seems like the tools i need, but i haven't been convinced at all by the demos... BUT, again, i don't like most of your sample library demos, but the way i make them sound, i love. Then, i doesn't mean anything. So, perhaps MIR is what i am looking for. But until i try it, i can't tell...

    Spat blew me just after five minutes and i was very surprised how light on CPU it was, and how i felt space. I am going to test it on a piece i'm mixing real strings and VSL samples, and compare it with what i can get best of Altiverb. I will also wait for MIR's Mac version to get the feel out of it.
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    @Aleksi said:

    i don't like most of your sample library demos, but the way i make them sound, i love
     

    You are better than all the VSL demos.   Put some of yours on here then.  I'd like to hear them if they are better than the VSL ones. Seriously.  People are always saying this, and never backing it up.  I want to hear it. 
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    Ok, why the aggressiveness here? I didn't say the VSL demos where a pile of poop, i said i don't like how they make them sound for most of them, just feels like a synth for many. I didn't say i made better, just that the way i use them, i like better; which translates in mixing it with other libraries and real instruments. And i'm sorry i didn't write a whole thesis about it, it just wasn't the subject here. When i hear the Bolero from Ravel processed in MIR, i'm sorry, i don't like it. Maybe because i've done yers of conducting and orchestration, and that i just don't like the way it sounds. Which doesn't mean the sounds themselves are not good.

    Anyway, start your own thread, your just spoiling this one. VSL sounds are amazing, and that is why i'm buying them and use them in my work! This thread is about the USE of IRCAM SPAT with VSL, not about the quality of marketing demos.
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    16 months later....

    http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/03/29/spat-your-new-best-buddy-for-mixing/
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    I read your review a few days ago, Peter. Interesting read, thanks. Beautiful piece of software with some surprisingly familiar features and approaches.

    If I understand you correctly, you have no first-hand experience with MIR Pro, have you? I'm asking because you pointed out the plain positioning options of Spat ("Reverb Off") - which is more or less what MIR offers in Dry Solo mode, or with the reverb length of a Venue reduced to something like 0.2 or 0.3 seconds. Add some algorithmic reverb of your choice, and your're right there (... after all, MIRacle is part of the deal).

    ... chances area that you could have two New Best Buddies for mixing now. ;-)

    Best,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    Dietz, the real difference to me is that with MIR the more dry signal you use, the closer the instrument feels, whereas this is not the case with SPAT. One can have a pretty dry signal that still has depth. This is not the same with MIR. BTW this is also the big flaw with multi mic set-ups. There are cases where mix engineers use the "bring it closer" aspect as a feature, but it is a drawback in many cases.

    DG
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    Daryl, that's exactly why I wrote "[...] or with the reverb length of a Venue reduced to something like 0.2 or 0.3 seconds". In this case you can leave the Wet/Dry-ratio at any value you want.

    Best,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    @Dietz said:

    Daryl, that's exactly why I wrote "[...] or with the reverb length of a Venue reduced to something like 0.2 or 0.3 seconds". In this case you can leave the Wet/Dry-ratio at any value you want.

    Best,

     

    Yes, this is useful for some instruments, but not for others. I find that the Oboe in particular, can be a problem instrument (as it is is in the real world!) and SPAT works very well to tame it, whereas I find it doesn't work so well in MIR.

    DG
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    (Why did I know in advance that I wouldn't have the last word on that ... ;-)  ...)

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    @Dietz said:

    I read your review a few days ago, Peter. Interesting read, thanks. Beautiful piece of software with some surprisingly familiar features and approaches.

    If I understand you correctly, you have no first-hand experience with MIR Pro, have you? I'm asking because you pointed out the plain positioning options of Spat ("Reverb Off") - which is more or less what MIR offers in Dry Solo mode, or with the reverb length of a Venue reduced to something like 0.2 or 0.3 seconds. Add some algorithmic reverb of your choice, and your're right there (... after all, MIRacle is part of the deal).

    ... chances area that you could have two New Best Buddies for mixing now. 😉

    Best,

    Correct, I have no experience yet with MIR. I'm working my way through the Vienna Suite and FORTI/SERTI for reviews first. Then I'd like to come back and review MIR Pro. Did you see the indepth reviews we did on Power Pan?

    http://soniccontrol.tv/2011/03/08/vienna-suite-power-pan-strings-positions-a-professional-orchestration-review/

    http://soniccontrol.tv/2011/08/25/vienna-suite-power-pan-woodwind-positions/

    http://soniccontrol.tv/2011/11/30/vienna-suite-powerpan-percussion-placement/

    http://soniccontrol.tv/2011/03/19/vienna-suite-power-pan-brass-positions-a-professional-orchestrationtm-review/
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    Hi everybody ! In the web I found many audio demos of MIR for orchestra but no demos of SPAT. I would like to listen some orchestral pieces made with VSL and SPAT . Someone can tell me where can I find these demos ? Thkx !
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    @Antoncct said:

    Hi everybody ! In the web I found many audio demos of MIR for orchestra but no demos of SPAT. I would like to listen some orchestral pieces made with VSL and SPAT . Someone can tell me where can I find these demos ? Thkx !
     

    You can always d/l the demo and make them yourself. [;)]

    DG
  • santamorphicS
    santamorphicS

    Hi Antonnct -

    Here's a mockup I did that uses SPAT with many VSL samples (and others). It's not a great piece of music - far from it! - but fun to do - don't take it too seriously.

    http://soundcloud.com/grahamhadfield/crazy-ambush

    I should say - it's not just VSL samples I've used - I'll use whatever I can get my hands on and I think has the right sound for the situation, and blend them. No purism here. No shame even! :-) From memory, there is some Dimension Brass, woodwinds high and low, orchestral strings (harsh samples), and percussion in there which is definitely VSL. Also using VEPro, VIPro and Vienna Suite, so I think it's ok to share on a VSL forum(?!).

    I'm absolutely not going for concert performance authenticity in the mix. This filmic music is an "unreal" mix in an "unreal" space as in my view (and this is subjective) I find music that is clearly in a "real" space often doesn't stick so well to the film and sort of lives in another space to the drama. Just my view. So I prefer to use algorithmic reverbs rather than convolution reverbs for this film stuff. Maybe this is why I have not investigated MIR yet. My impression of MIR is that it is for placing music in "real" spaces first and foremost (though of convolution IR doesn't _have_ to be a real space of course). My impression of SPAT is that it is a glorified panner that does left-right, (up and down ostensibly), distance from the listener, and left-right divergence (spread), without necessarily colouring the sound in a particular space as the reverb is independent of these glorified panning controls. To that point, thinking about it, I have not used any convolution reverb in this mix - only algorithmic - if that's relevant(?). Also - I will work the mix to bring instruments to the foreground and then push them back as needed (primarily just with levels) - which is certainly not concert authentic - unless you get the musicians to move around while playing!

    Hope that's of some vague interest. Some might say that SPAT is unnecessary - you could use levels, pan, divergence, eq, reverb send levels, and maybe delays to achieve the same thing. Well, yes maybe - but I don't think I have the time or the skill to use levels, pan, divergence, eq, reverb send levels and maybe delays to achieve the same thing.

    By the way - SPAT is only available as a 32 bit plugin right now. They are working on 64 bit. Their marketing blurb is (or was) a bit misleading in that it said it functions in 64 bit - but this is the internal bit depth for its audio processing, not the target platform of the plugin.

    Cheers,

    Graham

    www.grahamhadfield.com
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    Here in America we have a saying, 'Turnabout is fair play'. My contention is that MIR works wonderfully not only for VSL samples but for other libraries. And MIR is a great tool for Pop genre music. 

    Here's a short little something in the TV/Pop context that show a different usage of MIR. The strings have some VSL but are other libraries too. (Note that in this example the strings are meant to be more strident, pop sounding and less orchestral - but that doesn't have to be case generally, it just worked for this piece.) There is some Bricasti plate on the snare and VSL Hybrid Reverb on the bass. 

    I have SPAT also (not used here). Currently I find SPAT useful for spatialization and localization of an instrument. I haven't developed any keen appreciation for its reverb. The reverb just seems so tacked-on to the end of the spatialization process. With MIR the reverberant qualities are inherent in the room environment that you choose. There are so many differing creative possibilities with MIR in comparison to SPAT.

    What I do like about SPAT is that it's a simple plugin that can be instantiated within my host sequencer. That's handy, because right now MIR is only on my Slave machine and sometimes I have to think twice how I can get any sample that's only on my Master machine bussed over through the Audio Input structure to the proper place on my Slave.  But if what I've heard is true that MIR might also become available in the plugin format, then that will be a logical purchase here. 

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40008580/Avec%20Les%20Drums3-1.wav

    This link will be up for a few days only. 

    .