Please explain this Kontakt 4 and build 6853 behavior.

[philco]

Here is what happens.

• Complete track in PTools 8 on Master and VEPro 6853 on Slave...........using Mojo Horns on Kontakt 4

• Close session in PTools. VEPro is not preserved so it closes. Cool.

• Open same session immediately in PTools. Session opens in PTools but  VEPro crashes in the middle of loading instruments.

• Open backup of session in PTools. VEPro opens and loads.

• Preserve session in VEP

• Close session in PTools.

• All menus on Kontakt instruments cease to operate including all menus on Mojo Horns and all menus on Steven Slate Drums and every other loaded instrument. What I mean is that the drop down menus do not display anything and rotating knobs does nothing (the numbers don't move).

Why would this happen?

Scenario 2

Forget about PTools on the Master. The master has NO apps running at all.

• Open VEP 32 bit Server on slave and make a new Instance. Load Kontakt 4.

   No sub menus on any loaded instruments are working just as in above example.

• Quit VEPro and open Vienna Ensemble Pro (not to be confused with Vienna Ensemble Pro 32 bit server)

Load Kontakt 4 and all menus are working........................is there a reason for this?

• Quit VEP and open Vienna Ensemble Pr 64 bit server. Load Kontakt 4. All menus are working.

Just to be sure I quit and start the 32 bit server with the same result. Kontakt 4 menus are not working.

• Quit everything and run Kontakt 4 in Stand Alone mode. Works as expected with all menus working.

I have reinstalled VEPro (after I un installed)

I have reinstalled Kontakt 4 ( 4.1.1.3832)

I have shut down and restarted both computers numerous times.

The annoying thing: None of this Kontakt behavior (except the constant crashes of VEP) was happening yesterday.

Contemplating booking into a lunatic asylum.

Any suggestions? (apart from having a beer and watching a movie)

[philco]

Although when you think about it......why would you want to run VEP without being connected to the host? True. I would just like to know if this is normal behavior I guess.

[jeremyroberts]

I am also having serious issues with VE Pro 6853 - and as you posted in this thread, Phil:

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/26428/174136.aspx#174136

I suspect there is something going on between Kontakt 4.x and VEPro 6853

I had never used K4 until I installed Alicia's Keys (worthy of a thread of its own, this instrument is a joy), bundled with the K4 player. I took K4 player to the latest build, (4.1.1.3832, same as the version you are using).

I also installed VI Pro, but have not actively started using it. Still in test mode. So VI Pro is not in use in any template right now.

@Another User said:

1. Make a new session in protools. 24-bit/44.1 - ProToolsHD 8.01cs2

2. Make a new instance of VE Pro 32-bit server on a slave machine (mac book pro, OS 10.6.4)

3. Delete all channels from the VEPro default, then add an instance of Kontakt 4. Load a good sized patch, such as Alicia's Keys.

4. Make a stereo aux in ProTools, instantiate VEPro plug (6853) and connect (1 buffer)

5. Make a stereo instrument track in ProTools, assign midi to VEPro server and route audio as needed.

6. UNPRESERVE the instance in VEPro server.

7. SAVE the protools session.

8. CRASH

Could it be related to the amount of data that VEPro is trying to save into protools? This only happens when saving (command-s or auto-save)

I could revert back to 6150 for today, and see if things change for better or worse. The other possibility is to keep using 6853 and eliminate Kontakt 4 from the workflow. Which I can do... but I've been really loving Alicia's Keys and I'd hate to lose it.

Another data point: since I have 2 slaves (macbook pro, OS 10.6.4 and WInXP, both 32-bit servers), don't know if Kontakt 4 can play nice with protools in 6853 if I eliminate the mac slave... this is going to take some time to fully troubleshoot. Hopefully VSL can test this for us?

The one thing that we both have in common: OS 10.5.8 on PPC with PTHD 8.0.1cs2 as host.

For simplicity, I am first going to eliminate Kontakt 4 from my workflow and see if this helps, since this is the only change to my rig besides 6853 and VI Pro (as I said is not in use). Then if I must use Alicia's Keys, I will load it on the XP machine (I tend to load certain instruments on the same slave for consistency, but I have it on both slaves). Then if that's happy, we'll know that K4 in VEPro on the mac slave is the issue.

My session is gonna go all day/night (I have a parade of soloists coming in today, all day), so I'll report back after my musicians leave.

J

[jeremyroberts]

@philco said:

• All menus on Kontakt instruments cease to operate including all menus on Mojo Horns and all menus on Steven Slate Drums 

Phil,

Shouldn't you be using K3.5 for Steven Slate Drums? It was my understanding that SSD needs 3.5, not 4.x - but I may be wrong. DO your menus work in SSD if you load it into Kontakt 3.5? Just thinking out loud here...

J

[DG]

A few thoughts:

1. Are you using the Kontakt player or Kontakt? Does it make a difference?
2. When you save are you trying to do anything else? If so what  happens if you hit save and then leave it to do just that?
3. Does it also cause a problem when saving uncoupled?

DG

[jeremyroberts]

@DG said:

1. Are you using the Kontakt player or Kontakt? Does it make a difference?
2. When you save are you trying to do anything else? If so what  happens if you hit save and then leave it to do just that?
3. Does it also cause a problem when saving uncoupled?

1. Kontakt player 4. I purchased Komplete 7 upgrade and waiting for delivery, so I can only test with the player. 

2. When saving in protools, I have learned that if VEPro is involved, NOTHING else can be going on. This is, if there is any loading or saving or communication of any kind between VEPro server and protools,  you are asking for trouble. So the conservative way is to wait for VE Pro to complete its task, then save. And don't try to do anything during the save.

3. If UNCOUPLE is selected, there is no issue. On the surface, this appears to be some kind of communication issue. I know this sounds crazy, but instead of EMBEDDING all the server data back to the host, is it possible for the host to OPEN a saved project (metaframe) on the server as a "linked file" ? For larger templates and projects, embedding substantial data back to the host is really unnecessary, if the project is saved on the server. For VSL engineering: is it technically possible for the host to issue an open command for a saved or linked file on the server? This is not the thread to discuss this, but I've always wondered why the host is trying to save all this embedded data, when LINKED files would be so much more flexible. Just as Illustrator or FinalCut Pro have extensive uses for linked files (only proxies are embedded), why is it important for VE Pro to embed all slave parameters within the host file? Could this be a superior workflow? Maybe offer embedding for small templates, but also offer linking for those users who use large sample libraries. Just thinking out loud.

The reason I choose NOT to uncouple is because I want my server instances to auto-load with the protools session. WHERE the data is saved is not important to me -- but if there are technical challenges to embedding megabytes of data back to the host, why not do as other media applications do, and store the data on the server, and simply link to it? Should this discussion be in its own thread?

[DG]

Jeremy, I can't answer your question, but surely it's the host that decides what information to save? However, in any case I guess that there will have been little if any testing done on PPC, as it's unsupported, so that could even be part of the problem.

DG

[philco]

Hi DG,

• I am using Kontakt 4 within VEPro....not Kontakt Player

• I'm not doing anything else when save is happening ....in fact I had one crash when I had left the room and when I returned PT had crashed when it was doing an Auto Backup.

• Saving uncoupled is no problems at all and about 100 times faster.

In fact saving in PT with VEPro coupled is becoming a non option. Save times are up to 30 sec long and that makes things impossible in PT. You can't do anything whilst the save is happening. A real workflow killer.

So perhaps it's time to forget about coupling in VEPro as this really is not working.

We are just going to have to save the VEPro files on their own.......although I don't like working this way.

I'm with Jeremy on this. Why does VEPro have to save all that info every time it saves? Or is this a fault with PT?

I'm not sure what you mean about PPC not being supported.

Obviously we are using a version of PT that is supported (future versions are not but we have locked our systems down with this last version)

And of course VEP is supported for PPC.

All the other instruments and plugs are on our other Intel machines which are supported.

But this new version of VEP broke something in Kontakt OR the new Kontakt broke something in VEP.

Why do the sub menus disappear in Kontakt when we decouple?

And of course....why do we crash when we save in PT?

The previous version of VEP did not.

[DG]

I still think you need to clarify whether it is VEP saving all that information or PT. I think that it is the host that saves plugin information, otherwise how could it be recalled when you open a new session. Obviously for you the best way is to run uncoupled.

When I say that PPC is not supported I refer to:

[Quote]Intel Core 2 Duo/Xeon with Mac OS X 10.5.7 or higher (PPC/PPC64 works but is not actively supported) [/Quote]

DG

[jeremyroberts]

@DG said:

Obviously for you the best way is to run uncoupled.

And in fairness to VEPro, for 10 years+, those of us with Giga slaves were essentially running "uncoupled". We were forced to save each slave machine's parameter files locally, totally unrelated to our host's session file. If we run VEPro uncoupled, that is exactly the situation. And that is a short-term solution for protools users who use large samplesets in VIs such as Kontakt4.

With that said, in my opinion, I think VSL engineering should look at the issue here (see my post above discussing how other applications use linked files) and build a better mousetrap.

As long as VEPro sends megabytes of data on every save from the server to the host, and as long as protools crashes during these saves, protools users only option is to run uncoupled IF we are to run VIs with large sample sets, such as Kontakt4. But it would be so far superior if VSL could look at the issue and try to find a better way to do this, instead of requiring that we turn the feature off if we want to work without risk of crashing at the first save.

Everyone clear about the issues and (temporary) workaround here?

[philco]

Did I just miss something........?

We are now unsupported on PPC.

I thought the spec read PPC support when I bought VEPro.......I mean that's why I bought it.

But now the spec says Intel.

Did it always say that? Because I never would have bought VEPro and taken that chance. (knowing that I have a PPC non Intel)

Or have we just started to be unsupported in the last couple of versions and nobody mentioned anything?

I clearly remember telling my collegues that PPC was supported and to go ahead and purchase...............could I have really missed the spec?

Jeremy were you aware that PPC non Intel was unsupported?

[Paul]

Hi,

here are the system requirements for Vienna Ensemble PRO, they never changed. "PPC/PPC64 works, but is not actively supported."

There will come a point in time, when PPC computers can not be considered anymore.

Best,

Paul

[philco]

I admit I fit the stereotype of the "vague musician type" and I probably missed that in my excitement to press the purchase button. Bad move on my part but at least I've had some good months out of VEPro. But the wheels are starting to fall off now. I'm having to do all sorts of work arounds to keep working.

For example I can't get PTools to connect to any Metaframe other that "new". That just loads a new empty useless instance. Even if I open the instance that I want then PTools VEPro plug will not list it. So my work around is to save a channel set and open it in the "new" metaframe.

Also in the VEPro plug window in PTools there is never shown a "preserved" instance or the Slave computer name in those 2 white squares. Now that I think about it there never has been since I started using VEPro.

Tonight I was trying to trouble shoot all this and kept thinking about PPC not being supported and it finally dawned on me. The ship is sinking and I've already run up to the highest point and still the water keeps coming.

Ok I know what you're thinking I think. "If you're a pro muso just get over it and buy another computer.

There's a catch. My PTools cards are PCIX and won't fit in a new mac (PCI Express)

Exchanging cards would cost $5000 plus $3000 for a new computer.

Or by a chassis for $4000 (in Australia) and then a new computer $3000.

Ok I could just go ahead and do that BUT I know Digidesign have some new hardware coming any week now and everything I would have just bought will be obsolete.....again.

So I'm going to keep this sytem working somehow until Digidesign plays their hand. Then I'll jump.

Just thought I'd explain why I'm using a piece of junk as my host computer.

[jeremyroberts]

@Another User said:

I think there is something less than perfect with how VEPro saves data back to ProTools, and this issue manifests itself when large amounts of data have to be saved from a "coupled" VE Pro instance to ProTools. Kontakt4 seems to want to save more data back to ProTools than other VIs.

The temp workaround is: UNCOUPLE. Just like in the "old days" (last year), we save our VE Pro projects and metaframes on the slave, and connect manually. This is a sure thing.

HOWEVER, as I posted earlier in this thread, I think VSL engineering should take a look at this issue and build a better mousetrap. What is VEPro sending to ProTools that causes SO MUCH data that must be stored in the host session? I DO NOT BELIEVE this is PPC only issue, as a friend with a quadcore macpro host is having the same issue. The one thing we all have in common: Kontakt4 with large sets of samples. I think we are the "canary in the coal mine". I would love to see VEPro NOT embed its data to the host, rather LINK to a saved file, just like other professional apps (photoshop, finalcut, illustrator, quark, protools, etc..). I hope VSL engineering gets to read this. I'd love to hear back from VSL on this idea as well.

In the mean time, until something changes, IF we want to use Kopntakt 4 with VEPro and Protools, we're gonna have to run the old-fashioned way and UNCOUPLE.

I worked with 6853 all day and night on Saturday without any hiccups in any way, and I SIMPLY didn't use K4, else when I need to use K4, I uncoupled. No other issues.

Hope this helps.

J

[Paul]

Hi,

as I´m sure that you are following other threads as well, you already know that we are talking to NI to improve this situation [:)]

Please rest assured that we are reading every post in this forum and we are considering different solution if problems occur. There simply isn´t enough time to discuss every idea and feature wish list, if we want to keep up the speed we are used to.

Some things are not as easy as it seems, and as VE PRO is a product that faces so many variables (different sequencers, plug-ins, OS´s, hardware...) all solutions also need to be tested properly.

Thanks for your input and understanding.

Best,

Paul

[jeremyroberts]

Phil (and VSL Engineering):

I can verify the "NO MENUS" or settings issue with K4 -- but I stumbled into a workaround.... this is clearly a bug with VEPro/Kontakt 4 combo, and not with any host. This bug is on both XP 32 server and Mac OS 10.6.4 32-bit servers.

Do this:

1. Without any host running, on either xp or mac 32-bit server, add a new empty instance.

2. Load a Kontakt 4 VI ( loaded the K4 player 4.1.1.3832, as I have not yet taken delivery of the Komplete 7 bundle)

3. Load a patch with settings or scripting, in my case, i loaded Alicia's Keys

4. Wait for all samples to load, then observe that the "settings" or "menus" tab does not function!

Here's how to make it work:

5. launch your host. In my case, ProTools 8.0.1cs2

6. Connect to the VEPro server. I used 1x buffer, but it doesn't matter;

7. Settings or "menus" in K4 now work! Yeah! :-)

8. Now, DISCONNECT from the server -- and yes, the settings/menus no longer work. :-(

Bug.

Paul, do I need to submit a formal bug report for this, or can you please forward this thread to your engineers? 

Thx

J

[Karel]

It looks like Kontakt 4 (or a script) somehow needs to have the internal audio engine running. When a VE Pro instance is disconnected, its internal audio engine will never be running due to the fact that it needs a master host connection for this. This is a flaw in Kontakt 4 (or a script) that I doubt we can work around. It goes unnoticed in other hosts because they usually have their internal audio engine running at all times. This would explain how everything works properly in a connected VE Pro Server instance and in a standalone VE Pro.

[jeremyroberts]

Hi Karel,

Thanks for jumping in on this. Of course, there is no need to ever edit or use any parameters in a VI within a server instance of VEpro if the host is not connected, but this caught Phil and I off-guard, as we were having other difficulties with Kontakt 4. No worries.

Are you able to comment on the crashes that we're having while saving the host file in protools IF a Kontakt 4 is loaded in the VEPro server (forcing us to uncouple if we want to work without crashing) ? Does the host determine how and what is saved (embedded) or does the VI make this determination?

Is this something we should bring to NI's attention, or do you have a conduit to them?

Is this a protools issue?

Do have any guesses why large amounts of data from VEPro hosting K4 crash protools? Can you suggest any other workarounds besides uncouple?

Any guidance on tis is appreciated, as we are missing out on an important feature of VEPro (the "coupling" of the server to the host) until this is sorted out.

Thx

J

[philco]

I agree that the epicentre of this trouble is Kontakt.

Not to be counter productive but in all honesty I remember that these long save times were prevelant when using Kontakt as a plug inside PTools years ago. I also remember people on the DUC complaining about it.

BUT despite the long save times they did not result in a crash. That is new.

Jeremy can you explain something to me?

I agree that the way to work if we are using large instruments in Kontakt is to de couple (surely other users are using big orchestral templates in Kontakt......no?).

For this to work then we need to save our Metaframes and Instrument files on our slaves. No problems there.

BUT how do you then get ProTools to connect to your saved metaframe?

For the life of me I can't do this.

Here is what I do…

I open VEPro by double clicking on the saved Metaframe that I want to open (mframe32). This opens the server and all the instrument channels.

I then open the VEP plug on the host from withing PTools and all that is listed when I hit connect is "new". The instance that I have sitting on my slave is not there to choose from in the list.

How do I connect to it?

I have to save the channel set and bring it into the "new" instance and when I do I can be sure that some of the chanell I/O have been messed up (but I'm not concerned about that).

I'm fine with de coupling and working that way .......because I have a hugh investment in Kontakt instruments, but I need to be able to connect my saved files with PTools.

Am I missing a simple process here or is this a part of the PPC "works but not supported" funkyness?

[jeremyroberts]

@philco said:

BUT how do you then get ProTools to connect to your saved metaframe?

It's definitely not intuitive, nor obvious, but I stumbled upon this today while working it out...

1. Let's say your PT session is happy, and you are connected to various instances of server(s). Good. Now save PT.

MAKE SURE uncouple is selected. For me, I also have "preserve instance" UNCHECKED on each server instance.

2. Close protools session. Your server instances should close.

3. Now open the protools session. it will load EMPTY (default) server instances.

4. Now open the metaframe or projects at the server. Dialog: "Do you want to save changes to the project" - NO (this is a stupid interface design element - by default instances should be empty, without placeholders... but that is besides the point) -- and now your metaframe or projects should simply load.

Yes? Works for me, but I am only using one instance per server.

Don't forget to save your projects on each server. Just like the old days.

Please report back.