Your Welcome William.... It's always kinda nice to step away from the sequencer from time to time and have a stimulating discussion. Not that it going to change the world or anything, but at least, we all understand what's going on, even if they don't. [:D]
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Might I suggest Alexandre Desplat and Christopher Gordon as alternatives to this kind of "music". Desplat amazingly enough has become an A list composer in spite of the fact that he uses imaginative orchestration (loves those flute chords), embraces harmonic writing, knows how to write a theme and then develop it, and uses a multiplicity of styles in his various scores.
Gordon is an Aussie and hasn't received as much attention but he's an amazing composer as well. Check out Mao's Last Dancer and you'll see what I mean. Gorgeous music.
Jonny Greenwood is someone I really took notice of when he wrote There Will be Blood. I know lotsa people like to dismiss this score because it contains SOME previously composed music but there's also a lot of new material that is terrific. Some twit complained that Greenwood is like Media Ventures in that he gets orchestrators to write his music. Duhhhhh, he's composer in residence at the BBC last time I checked and studied formally...
Anyhow, there is not the same proliferation of superb composers writing for film these days for a number of reasons but there are a few notable exceptions that are worth a listen.
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@PaulR said:
You can't make films in Hollywood today like Chinatown. No one would go and watch it. I envy places like Sweden and France with their attitude towards film making while at the same time trying to preserve their own cultures and interests. They tend not to make films for obese people.
When what can only be described as an idiot says they can't stand film music from the 50' and 60's - you'll begin to understand where I'm coming from.
I hope you are not being discriminatory towards obese people, and I also hope you are not calling me stupid only because I don't like the music done in the 50s or 60s.
(Certain words here were deleted by myself, Mr String Sept 3rd 2010).
You have gone too far... I'm sorry for the other forumites that wanted to engage in a stimulating and friendly discussion, so did I.
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(Sigh) It was obvious that starting a discussion about what is essentially musical taste would have to eventually end up like this. This is what happens when people meet on internet forums instead of real life (although real life has its issues, too).
@vibrato: Maybe people are citing Herrmann because his music is atypical yet very, very cinematic. He happens to be a favorite of mine, which is why I mentioned him. I'm not sure I'm living in the past because of that preference. I love several compositions by both Max Steiner and John Williams (unless you consider John Williams as a has been), as well as Danny Elfman. I don't believe in gods in general, so I'm not putting any one of those people on a pedestal. I might be living in the past because I prefer listening to Maurice Ravel than to a repeating 8-bar electronic pattern coming from a car down the street, but that's another story.
I agree with you entirely when you say that it's easier to criticize than to create. But don't forget that criticizing something doesn't necessarily imply that you can do better. And I don't think we are spreading negative energy, on the contrary: I personally found it very encouraging to learn that there are other people out there who think film music should aim higher.
Ultimately, it all boils down to personal taste and cultural context, so please let's control our tempers :)
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I hope you are not being discriminatory towards obese people, and I also hope you are not calling me stupid only because I don't like the music done in the 50s or 60s.
Well yes on both counts actually.
But why would this bother you re: this conversation?
I've said it before. If I was making films today, my target audience of teenage girls would be (a) looking to become pregnant at any cost (b) be on benefits (c) expect to win the lottery anytime soon (d) think that one day they'll be abducted by aliens and (e) be in secondary to tertiary stages of obesity.
That's where the money is my friend!
You also need to read things properly. WHAT ANYONE LIKES IS IRRELEVANT - when it come to judgement of what constitutes quality in the end. Over history people like Mozart, Beethoven etc etc have all been vilified by peasants because they happened NOT TO LIKE SOMETHING. Who gives a fuck what anyone likes when trying to make objective judgements. The fact that you suddenly come into this conversation and make a sweepingly absurd statement about music from a certain era earns you a place in my hall of fame.
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I know myself after being exposed to the technological advance in audio recording (still like vinyl better than digital sound - warmer), listening to some of the older recordings (even watching them on TV, doesn't do as much for me as let say, listening to the same piece re-recorded by some orchestra using today's recording techniques. Follow what I'm trying to say?
Yes I follow. I don't worry so much about sound quality these days. When you sit down and watch say, an old film noir American film from 1948 or something - you soon forget about technical detail and just enjoy the content.
Or you could be watching a film in a foreign language from France, Sweden, Italy or Germany say - you soon forget about the language if it's any good and these type of things become forgotten. I remember back in 1968/69 when we in England had colour television become available. An acquaintance of mine at the time said from henceforth he would not watch a film on TV if it was in black and white. He and Mr String would certainly hit it off today.
The old studio system had a lot wrong with it most definitely. BUT - it a lot going for it too and when you observe the ludicrous amount of nonsense films made today it makes you wonder. But you have to make money and the money is where the kids are. And the kids are where their education is right now.
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@PaulR said:
Yes I follow. I don't worry so much about sound quality these days. When you sit down and watch say, an old film noir American film from 1948 or something - you soon forget about technical detail and just enjoy the content.That's true, I don't pay too much attention to the sound quality while watching older films. I'm focusing more on the plot than the music especially if I haven't seen the movie before. I have for time to time, especially watching old TV Series thinking to myself how cheesy the music sounds, mainly in my opinion, the quality as compared to today's standards. Not the music composition itself but the sound quality.
Nothing against the sound engineers of the past for they were working within the bounds of the technology that was available to them at the time. For me, at least right now, sound quality is important and I believe technology has moved in the right direction.
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[quote=Mr String]
The simple answer considering you included me in your quote is..........NO!
If you bother to read ALL the post, it will become apparent to you, that my position on individual's musical taste is subjective. That's a fact of life. No two people are always going to agree when it comes to music, religion and politics.
As far as obese people, marketing & product design in general, takes into consideration ALL types of people. There are TARGET audiences for all types of products, not just movies or music. Just pick up a Marketing 101 text book and you'll see what I mean.
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Perhaps it would be helpful - since this is a virtual round table discussion over drinks say, for people to read ALL posts before posting themselves, especially when their posts are sizeable diatribes making points that were nullified before having been made. To do otherwise is somewhat insulting and a waste of time. Another useful thing to keep in mind - what in my opinion went without saying - is that most of us deplorers here were looking for symphonic soundtracks that are: a) Worth the title 'symphonic' - with the attached weight and meaning the word has enjoyed during the last few hundred years, b) able to stand on their own as music without the support of the film, c) being original (you know what I mean) inspired, compelling, memorable works. So,
'a' - refers to orchestral or ensemble works that demonstrate considerable compositional technique: ex. voice-leading, counterpoint, orchestration, balance, etc.
'b' - requires all of the above plus formal elements (shape, flow, drama, contrast, development), and most importantly, character!
'c' - refers to the ineffable, unquantifiable dasein, that breathes life to a work, makes it unique and, oftentimes, beautiful and/or haunting.
I don't care whether anybody's music 'works for the film'! At this level you'd expect it to (with loud exceptions such as the latest Star Trek film). We are not going to celebrate composers that write music that 'm e r e l y' works for the film... Don't the sagas of Star Trek, Harry Potter, Batman, Superman, and perhaps most importantly, James Bond, tell you anything? Isn't the difference as plain as day to you from the early films to the latest ones? 'a', 'b' and 'c' factors disappearing as the instalments continue?
Like I said before, Mr. H.Z. is not fully responsible for the state of affairs, he does what he can, although his offerings are hard to fully appreciate and attribute since he openly collaborates with staff-composers, so to say that that particular orchestral idea, or this particular passage shows promise or skill, in this case is a blurry statement. However the point is, that him and others like him who write such non-descript characterless music, could very soon be superseded by boxes like Symphobia 3, Hollywoodsteals, etc. Whereas Herrmann, Mancini, Williams, Goldsmith, Barry, Morricone, Jarre... just try it programmers... just try it...
Finally, as far as Desplat is concerned, I can tell this guy could do more one day, but he hasn't quite yet; Christopher Gordon (I was happy to be present in the studio for one of his recording sessions for an American Film) is a very solid composer - not a pad-grating, Stormdrum-depending incompetent, that has been overlooked, probably due to the fact that he lives in Australia.
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Yes that's all very interesting Errikos with particular emphasis on whether something works for, or enhances a film.
There's a lot of talk about Hans Zimmer on the internet. One of the main reasons I can ascertain with regard to WHY a lot of younger musical types like Hans so much is because they find copying that style easy. These are the kind of musos that like CHORDS.
If I were them I would seriously consider NOT copying Hans because he's got it down to a tee. But more importantly - can anyone on this planet give me a title of a GOOD film that Hans has actually scored?
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can anyone on this planet give me a title of a GOOD film that Hans has actually scored?
That's not necessarily important to me as the soundtrack's quality is not necessarily commensurate to the film's. Zimmer has scored some movies that are generally considered by most filmic circles good enough films (yes, I agree, none were 'Chinatown'): 'My beautiful Laundrette', 'Rain Man', 'Driving Miss Daisy'. Williams on the other hand has scored 'E.T.', 'Attack of the Clones', and 'Home Alone'; while Goldsmith scored 'The Legend', 'The Final Conflict', and 'Gremlins'... It would be great if we could have more 'Chinatown's and 'Vertigo's, but my point is that - strictly musically speaking, we can still marvel at Williams' and Goldsmith's skills in what otherwise are crass - if entertaining - films, and recoil from the drab musical efforts in what otherwise could be termed 'competent', 'searching' cinema.
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@Errikos said:
Williams on the other hand has scored 'E.T.', 'Attack of the Clones', and 'Home Alone';Don't forget Memories of a Geisha either. I thought Williams did a superb job on that score and was very disappointed on Oscar Night to see that he lost to Broke Back Mountain......
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Perhaps talking about Williams is a bit OT but since we're on the subject... Another of Williams attributes is when NOT to score. This is a skill that even many seasoned composers can't master. A perfect example is Saving Private Ryan. The rounds whizzing through the air during the battle sequences became the score of the film and Williams was smart enough not to upstage the cacophony of death with loud cliche patriotic fanfares. By the way, Saving Private Ryan is a rare example of when sound design can be very effective as a score. Those sound effects were planned and deliberate. They weren't just thrown in there randomly becasue they sounded cool.
Another fine example of when not to score is Williams' delicate treatment of Schindler's List. JFK also comes to mind but now I'm getting WAY OT.
OK, back to Zimmer. I agree with a previous post about Rain Man being an impressive score. The score was simple static and almost, but not quite, childlike. Just like the character Raymond. The electronic elements worked very well in the score because it kind of put the listener in his own little world. Just like Raymond. Good work Hans!
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I thought Williams did a superb job on that score and was very disappointed on Oscar Night to see that he lost to Broke Back Mountain......
Herrmann lost to Goldsmith posthumously for Taxi Driver against The Omen.
This is why Oscars are meaningless shyte - and there are numerous other examples. For example - Psycho, one of the seminal scores of all time was not even nominated because the Oscar board regarded the film as frivolous. Also in the same year, namely 1960, the board gave the Oscar to Exodus (hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha) as opposed to say, The Magnificent Seven just to name one other. Of course, Exodus features a lot more Jewish issues than The Mag 7 and no one can deny that.
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Dear Chuck Green,
I am glad to read that you don't favour unfair treatment of persons or groups on the basis of prejudice. (And I am also glad to know that you are not calling me "..." only because I don't like a certain type of music of a certain period).
When I read "Agree with everything you said Paul", I understood that you agreed with PaulR on discrimination practices against obese people (and rude remarks). That's why I included you in the quote of my previous post. I now understand, from what you tell me, that your agreement with PaulR is only based on marketing considerations, and not on those other things.
I have decided to delete the words of my previous post that made reference to you, as a gesture of courtesy.
Best regards,
Mr String
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Dear PaulR,
You appear to be a knowledgeable person. You also appear to be my senior, and this inspires respect. Furthermore, I find some of your ideas similar to mine. I really hoped that I had misunderstood your post, but that is not the case.
I will only say that you are failing in your responsibilities towards the younger generations of artists.
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Dear Young or Old Composer or Forumite that happens to be reading this thread,
Let me share my views on Orchestration with you.
The Orchestra is more than a group of musicians.
It is a symbol of mankind working together for a good purpose.
Unfair treatment of persons (in this case, obese or young teenage girls) has no place in this orchestra.
This is the real noise we need to avoid.
The noise in films is a stylistic tendency, not idiocy.
If you need noise, use it extensively since it is as pure as yourself.
Essentially, there is no difference between notes and noise.
If you want, you can call them noise-notes. Or note-noises.
Marketing is a necessity, and it deals with target audiences.
However, be cautious: the concept of target can confuse you.
People are not targets, they are not ordinary objects.
Your friends are not targets,
your girlfriend or boyfriend is not a target,
your grandpa is not a target,
foreigners are not a target,
your audience is not a target.
He or she does not believe his or her understanding is superior,
and is certain to be equal to the carpenter,
equal to the butcher,
equal to the nurse,
equal to everybody.
He or she feels there's nothing special in him or her.
Everybody is a composer.
Everybody has perfect pitch.
Thinking of yourself as superior
can only make you feel your inferiority.
A composer who composes for this Orchestra,
is not composing music.
He or she is composing himself or herself.
Not even instruments are required
since the real Symphony happens within.
Death and life are are his or her friends,
since Life does not believe to be superior to Death
and Death does not believe to be superior to Life.
Best wishes,
Mr String
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have decided to delete the words of my previous post that made reference to you, as a gesture of courtesy.
Thanks Mr. String.......