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  4. Practical limits of VE Pro, Kontakt & Logic?

  • Practical limits of VE Pro, Kontakt & Logic?

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    Hello,

    I'm currently evaluating the demo of VE Pro with the hope that it can help me consolidate all my Macs and give me the benefits of offline bouncing & easier recall in Logic.  I have a relatively advanced setup that works perfectly now, but offline bouncing is out of the question, and I have to manually recall everything for each project.  I'd love to hear from anyone doing something similar, but with VE Pro.  Here's my current setup:

    Main Mac = Mac Pro 8-core (2008) with 16 GB RAM, OSX 10.6.3 running Logic 9.1.1 (32 bit mode)

    Logic contains all my custom EXS insts., Stylus RMX and all my audio processing, including 10-12 high-end 'verbs

    Logic sends MIDI via IAC to these apps running standalone: Kontakt 4.1 (64 instruments loaded), Kontakt 3.5 (64 instruments loaded), Vienna Ensemble 2 (8 instruments loaded) and Play (16 instruments loaded).  Audio from these apps returns to Logic via RME Totalmix loopback.

    Slave Mac 1 = G5 dual 2.3 GHz with 8 GB RAM, OSX 10.4.11 running Kontakt 3.5 (64 instruments loaded), Kontakt 2.1 (16 instruments loaded).

    Slave Mac 2 = MacBook Pro 2.2 GHz Core 2 Duo with 4 GB RAM running OSX 10.6.3, Kontakt 4.1 (64 instruments loaded)

    Slave Mac 3 = iMac 3.03 GHz with 8 GB RAM  (new, not set up yet, but I could add quite a bit with this machine).

    My main goal is to incorporate all of that into VE Pro for the obvious benefits.  However, that's 272 Kontakt instruments, 16 Play instruments and 8 Vienna instruments.  Is anyone having success with that large a setup?  I'm building a generic Logic template from scratch and so far I have all the Kontakt stuff going that normally runs on just my Mac Pro (that's 128 Kontakt insts in 8 instances of VE Pro).  It seems to be working, but I'd have a way to go to incorporate everything else.

    I'd love to hear from anyone pushing the envelope - any tips/tricks or advice appreciated!

    Thanks,
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    Thought I'd update the progress of my experiment.  I now have (14) instances of VE Pro loaded in Logic, all pointing to (1) 64-bit server - all on 1 Mac Pro.  That's 216 instruments!

    It all seems stable, and I'm not getting any pops, clicks or other issues.  However, Logic is doing something strange:  when first loaded it uses minimal RAM (175 MB or so).  However, if I start at the top of the track list and select the next track, each successive selection increases Logic's memory usage.  By the time I get to the bottom of the list (track 216), Logic is using over 1GB RAM - and I haven't even done anything yet!  This is an empty song - it just has the 14 VE Pro plugins loaded and that's it.

    I've seen this behavior with other things too (auditioning patches in Omnisphere, for example) so I'm not sure it's a VE Pro issue - Logic has definitely been having some growing pains re: memory issues...
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    Hi Jim,

    I'm trying to do something similar but having lots of problems with clicks and dropouts. Can I ask you, when you say you are now running all of this on one Mac Pro are you including Logic, or is it just the VEP on one Mac Pro?

    I'm actually trying to run PT8 or Cubase 5 on the Mac and VEP on a PC via ethernet, but I'm considering swapping them so I can take advantage of the Memory Manager in Kontakt on the Mac... Is that how you're doing it?
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    Hi,

    Yes, I'm doing everything on one Mac so far, although my usual setup involves 2 slave Macs as well.  I just wanted to see how far I could go on my main 8-core Mac.  So at the moment, Logic has 14 VE Pro plugins connected to:

    (1) 64-bit server running (12) multitimbral instances of Kontakt 4.1 and (8) instances of VIenna instruments (200 instruments total)

    (1) 32-bit server, which is running (16) instances of East West PLAY.

    Logic is running at a buffer size of 128, all VE Pro plugins are set at 2 buffers, and all are decoupled - otherwise Logic really slows down on certain editing operations & save times.  Decoupling is no big deal for me - all I have to do is save a metaframe of the whole project.  As for Kontakt, as long as you're on 4.1 you can disable KMS (Kontakt's memory server) and run it in the 64-bit VE Pro server.  That will give you access to all your RAM.  For earlier versions you will certainly want to enable KMS.

    It's still a work in progress for me; the next step is to try and spread the load a bit across my slave computers and see how that works.  Except for a few bugs with VE Pro, it's working very well, at least conceptually.  If I can get it working with such a large setup & take advantage of offline bouncing, I'll be a VERY happy guy.

    The main bug I'm noticing is that offline bounces in Logic aren't properly compensated for VE Pro's buffer latency.  If I set buffers to 'none' it's fine, but it's a pain to have to do that every time I want to bounce something - especially across 14 instances of the plugin!  Hopefully that will be fixed ASAP.  I started another thread about that here - see that for more details.

    Hope this helps a little!

    Jim
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    Thanks Jim, this is really useful information. I'm going to start setting this up and will report back if I have anything to add that might help anyone else.
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    Hey Jim, thats some template! I use Protools so Im not familiar with Logic. why do you have so many instances of Ve Pro open,since one Ve Pro instance can load 512 instruments?is it better to use more instances and less instruments in each instance? Also the same question applies to Play,why so many instances,are they all fully loaded? re VE Pros server prefs:in multiprocessing how many threads are set per instance? If this is just for experiments sake then my questions are mute,just curioys anyway. Thanks, Dean.
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    @darkmatter said:

    why do you have so many instances of Ve Pro open,since one Ve Pro instance can load 512 instruments?is it better to use more instances and less instruments in each instance? Also the same question applies to Play,why so many instances,are they all fully loaded? re VE Pros server prefs:in multiprocessing how many threads are set per instance?

    Hey Dean,

    The reason for that number of instances is due to the limitations of the AU plugin spec: each plugin can only access 16 MIDI channels.  So, for every 16 channels/parts, I need an instance of VE Pro.  It doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of memory though.  Same with PLAY:  I typically use a single multitimbral instance, but I thought I'd try 16 individual PLAY instances inside a VE server - that way I have much easier mix control of each channel.

    Most of my little (!) experiment was to see how much I could load on one Mac; I will end up spreading the load a bit between my 3 machines.  I'm very encouraged though - I get much better performance with VE Pro, and even usage of all 8 cores for the first time ever!

    I left all the settings at default so far in VE Pro - if I remember right I think it's 2 threads per instance (I'm not in front of it right now).

    Hope this helps!

    Jim
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    Ok ,thanks. with rtas you can use 32 ports x 16 midi channels in one instance,I havent tried this yet. AFIK: re threads and 8 core Macs:if you have one instance you can use up to 8 threads,2 x instances = 4 threads and so on and the remaining cores/threads for OS and Host.
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    @whinecellarstudio said:

    The reason for that number of instances is due to the limitations of the AU plugin spec: each plugin can only access 16 MIDI channels.  So, for every 16 channels/parts, I need an instance of VE Pro.  It doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of memory though.  Same with PLAY:  I typically use a single multitimbral instance, but I thought I'd try 16 individual PLAY instances inside a VE server - that way I have much easier mix control of each channel.
    Hey Jim, I'm looking to add an iMac to my set up as well. It's funny we are using the same set up almost. Anyways I'm fairly new to VSL and just wanted to know what you are running on your iMac now. EWQL, VSL? And how is it performing? Also I use about 4 instruments in a PLAY instance but you said in VEPro that you are doing each instrument in a instance. Is this still working well for you? I have Stylus, VSL, EWQL and Kontakt stuff just like you do so this thread is very helpful. Many thanks!
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    Hello,

    I basically replaced my old G5 with the iMac, so it's doing the exact same thing (but with much more room to breathe and ability to add more if necessary).  The iMac houses 72 Kontakt instruments: string & winds from EastWest Platinum, VSL Epic Horns and a bunch of Storm Drum 1 instruments.  I'm NOT hosting each instrument in an instance though - I have 5 Kontakt instances (each with 16 instruments loaded) running in a single 64-bit server.

    It works flawlessly, and as I mentioned - the iMac never breaks a sweat.  I have all the samples running on a FW800 enclosure which contains 4 10kRPM Velociraptor drives.  I was a little worried about Firewire bandwidth but it's been fine; the crucial thing is access time, and the Velociraptors are great for that.

    Hope this helps - the iMac does make a great slave machine!

    Jim
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    Thank You So Much for the info Jim!! I am also surprised the FW800 handles everything. I'm assuming you have your iMac maxed out at 16GB of RAM? Also have you tried running samples off of the internal hard drive? Is this something that you find should be avoided? Also do you have all 72 instruments loaded at once? I know for my EWQL I keep articulations unloaded until I need them. (to save start up time) Speaking of which what is your start up time for VE Pro with everything loaded on the iMac? Thanks in advance for all the info!
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    You're more than welcome.  FW800 has plenty of bandwidth for what I'm asking of that machine; again, it's the drive latency (seek time) that's more important.  I wouldn't run my main machine off FW800, but for a slave it's fine.  Also, the libraries are spread across 3 drives on the slave (strings/winds/brass/perc), so that helps too.  I would definitely NOT use the internal drive for samples.

    The iMac only has 8 GB RAM in it right now, but that's adequate; the G5 it replaced only had 8 GB as well, and for what I'm asking of it, that's fine.  I'm running all the keyswitch patches of every solo & string group from EW Platinum, which pretty much covers every string articulation in that whole library.  I'm also running most of the Platinum wind articulations as well plus all the special effects, runs, grace notes, etc.  Then from Epic Horns I have all the commonly used stuff (sustains, staccatos, schmett, slow/fast legatos, glisses, etc.) and finally, all the big drums  & ethnic perc from Storm Drum 1.  Total is 80 instruments loaded at once (sorry, I was wrong in my earlier post) - 16 x 5 Kontakt instances.

    As of Kontakt 4.1 and the new rapid load feature (forget the term they use), it loads AMAZINGLY fast.  The entire 80 instruments (saved as a single VE Pro "metaframe" on the iMac) loads in less than a minute.  On the G5 I think it took 9 minutes, so I'd call that an improvement!  My main Mac runs ~225 more Kontakt, VSL & EW PLAY instruments, and that whole template loads in around 1.5 minutes.  I also run the majority of LA Scoring Strings on my other slave - a MacBook Pro.  It all works incredibly well, except for a few minor issues with VE Pro & Logic (to do with latency compensation when bouncing) - but those are easily worked around.

    I absolutely LOVE this setup, and it has fundamentally improved my workflow!

    Hope that helps,
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    Awesome Jim! So your EW stuff is in Kontakt format? And it sounds like you recommend going with the iMac over an old G5? (if I can find one) Also I have a MacBook Pro too. What model is yours and how does it handle LASS?
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    Jim, Thanks for all the great info! I just got VE Pro and I'm excited about the possibilities with Logic and some of the same libraries you have. You mentioned work arounds for latency with logic? What are the work arounds? Right now with my limited testing latency is the biggest issue I'm seeing. Also, I'm also wondering about the G5 vs iMac performance. Did you run VE Pro on the G5 and find the iMac is better? I have investing in old technology (ppc G5) but i worry too about buying an iMac for a slave. Just wonder what your thoughts are. thanks!
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    A high end imac, particularly the i7 version, is going to blow away a G5 in terms of performance.  It hurts to give up things like internal drive space, but for a slave machine FW800 will be fine for many things.
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    Also what is the FW800 enclosure you are using? I assume all drives are contained in the enclosure as the iMac only has one FW800 port.
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    Hey Guys,

    Sorry for the delayed response - it's been a crazy few days.  Here we go:

    1. Yes, most of my EW stuff is in the old Kontakt format; I do use Storm Drum 2 heavily and EWQL Pianos on occasion, both of which are PLAY libraries - but those are on my main Mac (not the iMac slave). They work perfectly for me, but I do prefer working with Kontakt.

    2. Yes, I absolutely recommend a current iMac over a G5 - the iMac will run circles around a G5.  As long as it's a slave machine, you should be OK with the lack of PCIe slots and drive bays.  As for my MacBook Pro, it's a 17" Core2Duo with 8 GB RAM.  I swapped the optical drive for a second hard drive (a 500 GB Hitachi Travelstar at 7200 rpm) and it works great for LASS.  I actually use the Lite version as LASS is just one of my string libraries - but that being the case, I have every articulation loaded for both 1st chair & sections, no problem.

    3. The latency workaround I mentioned is to counteract a bug between Logic & VE Pro (and this may have been fixed in the new version just released - haven't tested it yet).  What happens is that you have to set your VE Pro plugin buffer to 'none' before doing an offline bounce - otherwise the resulting file will be out of sync by the buffer amount.  The other workaround is to turn off Logic's delay compensation before bouncing.  No big deal really, although it would be great if it were fixed!

    4. Back to the iMac as slave - I'm using a 4-bay "Burly" drive enclosure by www.macgurus.com.  It used to be a straight SATA version but I modified it with a pair of FW800 bridge boards so I could use it with the iMac.  That's 4 drives on the iMac's single FW800 bus, but it's been working perfectly streaming all 72 loaded instruments as a slave (EW Platinum strings & winds, VSL Epic Horns & EW Storm Drum 1 kits).

    Again, I wouldn't use an iMac as a main computer, but it makes a great slave!

    Cheers,
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    @whinecellarstudio said:

    Again, I wouldn't use an iMac as a main computer, but it makes a great slave!

    Just curious as to the reason behind this: if it can stream 72 loaded instruments without problems, and assuming there's plenty of RAM and no need for a PCI audio card, why wouldn't the iMac make a good main computer? I'm hesitating myself between the iMac and Mac Pro and would be interested in the reasons for avoiding the iMac as a main machine.
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    @whinecellarstudio said:

    3. The latency workaround I mentioned is to counteract a bug between Logic & VE Pro (and this may have been fixed in the new version just released - haven't tested it yet).  What happens is that you have to set your VE Pro plugin buffer to 'none' before doing an offline bounce - otherwise the resulting file will be out of sync by the buffer amount.  The other workaround is to turn off Logic's delay compensation before bouncing.  No big deal really, although it would be great if it were fixed!

    This problem is actually due to Logic not acting properly on latency changes as other hosts do. We haven't given up on finding a workaround for it, but the current version should still behave the same.

    One thing you might try experimenting with is setting the I/O Buffer Size and the Process Buffer Range of Logic to the same size, like this:
    - I/O Buffer Size: 512, Process Buffer Range: Small
    - I/O Buffer Size: 1024, Process Buffer Range: Medium
    - I/O Buffer Size: 2048, Process Buffer Range: Large

    Hopefully that helps with the bouncing situation on your side.
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    @Talino said:

    Just curious as to the reason behind this: if it can stream 72 loaded instruments without problems, and assuming there's plenty of RAM and no need for a PCI audio card, why wouldn't the iMac make a good main computer? I'm hesitating myself between the iMac and Mac Pro and would be interested in the reasons for avoiding the iMac as a main machine.

    I suppose it all has to do with the type of music you write and what demands you place on your main computer.  I tend to write larger scores that are really involved and I use a LOT of instruments at one time (up to 300), so I need the bandwidth that only an 8-core Mac Pro with lots of SATA drives can provide.   If there's even a slight chance that you'll work on a larger project, I'd steer clear of an iMac if only for the hard drive bottleneck.

    If your needs aren't that ambitious and/or you don't use a bunch of streaming sample libraries, then an iMac might work for you.  In that case,  the 27" model with an i7 quad-core processor is actually a really good machine.  Furthermore, you can have an external SATA port added by OWC, which would give you up to (2) internal drives and an external as well - leaving FW open for further expansion.

    Hope that helps!