@Roger Noren said:
And in that case classical recordings would be made that way - why bother setting up the extra microphones then?
I don't understand this question, sorry.
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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5m seems like it could be reasonable for a group, but one meter for a solo instrument seems way too close for an orchestral sound.
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@Roger Noren said:
And in that case classical recordings would be made that way - why bother setting up the extra microphones then?I don't understand this question, sorry.
What you wrote seems like a contradiction to me. First you say (which I agree upon) that classical recordings are made with balancing close and distant miking, and then you say a convolution reverb can control the depth placement just as good. Then I wonder why classical recordings are not made that way since it seems much easier. My point is that close and distant miking gives different characteristics, which not entirely could be simulated by the CR. In my opinion, the best way to simulate something would be to do it as close to the real thing as possible. I understand that users don't want to have any reverb sometimes, so the close and distant miking should be done in a fairly dry room. Then, by balancing these two, adding the reverb wanted, it should give a convincing result. The demos I've heard from VSL are very impressing in every aspect expect for the depth definition.
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@mike connelly said:
5m seems like it could be reasonable for a group, but one meter for a solo instrument seems way too close for an orchestral sound.
When you are recording real instruments in an orchestral setting it would be unlikely you'd go further away than 1m with the "spot" mic for your solo instrument. Apart from around this position sounding just fine (along with mixed in pick-up of the room and other orchestra mics) any further and the mic would tend to pick up additional instruments in preference to your solo.
Julian
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@julian said:
When you are recording real instruments in an orchestral setting it would be unlikely you'd go further away than 1m with the "spot" mic for your solo instrument. Apart from around this position sounding just fine (along with mixed in pick-up of the room and other orchestra mics) any further and the mic would tend to pick up additional instruments in preference to your solo.Julian
I'd agree that 1m may be fine for a spot mic, but in that situation it is also blended with a more distant mic. In general, orchestral recordings sound most natural using mostly the main mics that capture the entire ensemble, and a small amount of spot mics (when they are needed).
I'm talking about recording with only one mic and having it at 1m, which seems to be the case with some VSL solo instruments (correct me if I misunderstood).
If you really wanted to recreate that means of recording a full orchestra, it seems like the best way to do it would be to use multiple mics (more distant mics and closer "spot mics") and let the user mix between the two. The difference in sound between close and distant micing is more than just verb and I doubt it can really be simulated well.
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So, does MIR actually help improve the actual timbre of the currently available VSL strings libraries ? (i.e. offer rich, natural, and warm strings timbre) ? I personally don't think so.
Yes, MIR can improve the perceived spacial elements around the samples, but since the samples themselves do NOT have that rich, warm timbre I'm expecting to hear, I very much doubt any type of spacial treatment will solve this problem. Sadly, this is very much the case with all of the VSL strings audio demos I hear. They lack that natural, warm, and pleasing strings timbre that my ears have a big craving for.
If VSL thinks that MIR is the ultimate solution to improve the current VSL strings, I would love to hear a few demos that prove that this is actually possible. So far I'm NOT convinced.
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@Roger Noren said:
And in that case classical recordings would be made that way - why bother setting up the extra microphones then?I don't understand this question, sorry.
What you wrote seems like a contradiction to me. First you say (which I agree upon) that classical recordings are made with balancing close and distant miking, and then you say a convolution reverb can control the depth placement just as good. Then I wonder why classical recordings are not made that way since it seems much easier. My point is that close and distant miking gives different characteristics, which not entirely could be simulated by the CR. In my opinion, the best way to simulate something would be to do it as close to the real thing as possible. I understand that users don't want to have any reverb sometimes, so the close and distant miking should be done in a fairly dry room. Then, by balancing these two, adding the reverb wanted, it should give a convincing result. The demos I've heard from VSL are very impressing in every aspect expect for the depth definition.You didn't read my previous post properly (or it's a language thing - English isn't my mother tongue, as you may have guessed 😊 ...)
What the main microphone in an orchestral recording picks up is 90 or more percent room reflections. These reflections are coming from sources which are "dry" by definition (as an instrument isn't a room in our sense of the word - well, maybe with the exception of an organ).
This room signal is what MIR is all about. Mix in the dry signal to the "proper" amount - which is always more a question of aesthetics than pure science, to my experience - and you are right there. The feeling for "distance" is built-in.
Of course we are in the virtual world, so we have to deal with side-effects that wouldn't occur in reality, so all we can do is to betray the human ear as skillfully as pissible. 😊 MIR is still brandnew, so we yet have to gain mastership.
Kind regards,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
@muziksculp said:
So, does MIR actually help improve the actual timbre of the currently available VSL strings libraries ? (i.e. offer rich, natural, and warm strings timbre) ? I personally don't think so.
If VSL thinks that MIR is the ultimate solution to improve the current VSL strings, I would love to hear a few demos that prove that this is actually possible. So far I'm NOT convinced.
A friend of mine who's a professional classical player came to my home a week ago and told me that VSL+MIR is the most convincing orchestra mock-up tool till now.
In a world where somebody says that old LP are better than 24bit/98K digital recording, that is a big success for the Vienna Team.
If you don't like it, you may go for the real thing and nobody will argue with you. I think that every man prefer a beatiful girl instead of a video of her[8-|], even if is a 3D movie.
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A friend of mine who's a professional classical player came to my home a week ago and told me that VSL+MIR is the most convincing orchestra mock-up tool till now.
In a world where somebody says that old LP are better than 24bit/98K digital recording, that is a big success for the Vienna Team.
Thanks for the feedback.
Hearing is believing ! That's the only way to prove that VSL + MIR is the ultimate sounding virtual orchestra solution on the market.
If (VSL + MIR) can offer the type of string sounds I'm eager to hear, I would buy it instantly. The real issue is that non of the audio demos have been able to deliver that rich, and warm, strings timbre I'm seeking. I'm also aware that there is no way we are going to be able to compete with real string players when using samples, but the closer we get to that animated, lively, warm, singing, and rich timbre sound, the more convinced I will be that VSL + MIR can do the job.
IMHO, VSL woodwinds, and brass, timbres, are much better sounding than VSL's strings timbre, so I'm hoping that VSL might have some future plans, to offer a line of new ' improved ' Strings libraries (2nd generation VSL strings ) one of these days. So far there is no sign of this happening, but who knows, they might decide to do so one of these days. On the other hand, if I do finally hear that jaw dropping VSL strings audio demo, I will put this argument to rest.
Cheers.
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I agree with that. If VSL/MIR are really doing the most convincing mockups possible right now, it's not coming across in the demos I have heard.
And from what I've heard I'd also agree that the brass and wind instruments seem more convincing than the strings.
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I think that every man prefer a beatiful girl instead of a video of her , even if is a 3D movie.
For a moment there I thought I read "I think that every man prefers a beautiful girl instead of the wife he got"...
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2MM1BosdmYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2MM1BosdmY
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I've used VSL Strings for almost 6 years now, up until the point I got LA Scoring Strings. Over the last few projects I found myself replacing my VSL strings completely, with the exception of sordinos and there legato articulation. With that said, VSL Strings did there job exceptionally over the years, but until they offer proper divisi options I'll be with LASS. Am alone on this one? Any LASS users on here?
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@Sami said:
I've used VSL Strings for almost 6 years now, up until the point I got LA Scoring Strings. Over the last few projects I found myself replacing my VSL strings completely, with the exception of sordinos and there legato articulation. With that said, VSL Strings did there job exceptionally over the years, but until they offer proper divisi options I'll be with LASS. Am alone on this one? Any LASS users on here?I have actually considered buying them. Do you find them easy to work with? How do you find the sound quality of them compared to your current libraries?
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To answer your question Inspector Gadget, I mean Herb, I'm part of a production company that own just about every significant sample library known to man, everything under my account is my own personal collection. I don't want to say anymore about LASS without looking like I'm promoting there product on here, but I think I've made my point. There are plenty of reviews and demos out there, listen and compare for yourself. Again, not to say VSL Strings aren't awesome.
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I suspect why Herb posted the question is that VSL instruments are licensed to individuals for use in their own compositions/productions.
So I guess it would be outside the scope of the licence for an individual to purchase a VSL licence then for other composer/engineers to use it even within the same production facility!
Which leads on to.... if you're using the VSL strings not licenced to you (maybe it's different if you're a programmer for a composer with a licence) then someone's not playing ball.
Julian
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"Indeed" - "sami"
What the hell is that supposed to mean? That you stole the VSL library? You must have, since by your posts you indicate you are a real jerk with no respect for your superiors.
BTW, you do not know what the hell you are talking about. The LASS may have better "auto-divisi" than VSL, but they don't compare to VSL in basic sound and musical quality at all. So you can do divided but mediocre strings with that library. go for it!
There was a guy on here previously who said concerning VSL solo strings - "give us poorer sound quality but looped." Which goes to show - along with your post - that what Nietzsche predicted about the increasing democratization of society resulting in idiots being given equal voice to rulers and geniuses has already taken place - on the internet. I congratulate you for your achievement in proving him right.
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Lol dang this guy is sensitive. First of all, go to my site www.adventmp.com and tell me if I look like I need to steal ANYTHING, let alone spend a few grand on a library. I simply wasn't willing to dignify either of Herb's or Julian's comments, with all due respect. Second of all, your reference to democratization is remedial. I'm simply giving an opinion on a product, you can agree or disagree, why take it personal? I'll reiterate; VSL Strings sound great, amazing, incredible... But I moved on to something new and in my opinion, better. Now whether it be from a technical or sonic stand point, is where we can talk. Because technically I think LASS is superior. Sonically, since that is completely subjective I can understand your disagreement. I've only had a few posts on these forums and I'm already being called a jerk, unexpected from what I imagined would be an open and diverse community like VSL. Anyway, if anyone would like to go back to the subject of strings, awesome. If anyone would like to talk about me some more, we can do that elsewhere, or even better, contact me directly.
