I have had some orchestras play the same pieces that samples were used on,  and the orchestral performances were vastly inferior to samples.  Everybody here seems to think that if their music is performed by a live orchestra it will sound like Bernstein conducting Beethoven's Ninth.  99% of the time it doesn't.  In fact, most of the time live orchestras are disturbing and embarrassing. 

The reason for this is that everyone has adapted to recordings, either on CD or in films.  And if you think you will get that 1% performing quality on most orchestras, you are in for a rude awakening.   

to me, it looked like William did give you a "constructive comment" about studying "The Rite" ultimate MIDI realization.

I think perhaps bbesse is regarding my post which he/she thinks is irrelavant to his/her questions.  In retrospect perhaps I did butt into his/her thread and try to start my own thread.  That was rather rude of me and I sincerly appologize.

Having said that, lighten up a little will you.  My post was not completely irrelavant to your OP.  I addressed issues like varying your tunnings, Try to avoid long sustains especially with wind instruments and vary your volume levels. 

Your questions have been asked many many times before BTW.  Did you bother to search the forum before posting?  If you're going to post questions that have been addressed before than I'm going to have some fun with you.  Sorry but you did say, "any/all replies are SOOOOOO welcome."  Again, my reply was relavant I was just being a little light hearted that's all.   

Bbesse - you will never understand how Bergenson does that using samples if you are not prepared to understand that what he and J Bacal do is NOT use a keyboard in any thorough way when they program. They click - with a mouse an infinite number of times to get the programming just the way they want it to sound. You can't do really complex string parts, for instance, on a keyboard. You have to spend loads of time on a computer. Strings can be played in real time much quicker than a keyboard player as I'm sure you realize. So if you think about that - it's going to be impossible to replicate anything like that using samples and a keyboard as a sort of real time input. On top of that, these guys spend endless hours layering samples. You have to be a mental case to do what they do.

That's why I don't bother with  all of that. Way too time consuming. I just use a keyboard and don't do complex.

@jasensmith said:

I sort of have the opposite problem.  I have a 100 piece orchestra at my disposal and, man I tell ya, it's like pulling teeth to try to get them to sound like a fake sampled orchestra.  Does anybody have any suggestions on how I can make my real orchestra sound fake?  No matter how hard I try, they (the players) refuse to play in exact time at the exact same volume level.  I thought block chords would be simple enough to sound fake but they can't even do that consistently.   I can't get them to play vibrato as if it were controlled by an LFO controller.  The string players keep up the bow changes when I want a ten minute sustain.  The wind players keep running out of breath after about fifteen to twenty seconds, why can't they just hold a note continuously forever?  Everybody's tuned slightly differently it just goes on and on and on.  It all sounds too darn real!!!

Regardless of everything... that's the funniest post I've read on the VSL forum !!  [:D]  [:D]

Made me chuckle anyway! hehehee I'm sure it was only meant as a bit of fun!

knievel

.

Yes - it was  sad day in this country when they outlawed dueling.

Anyone for a cheese sandwich?

@PaulR said:

Yes - it was  sad day in this country when they outlawed dueling.

 That's all very well for people like yourself who have some eye to hand coordination, but for us dweebs, we have no chance. [:(]

Back on topic, there are times when real-time is the best way and times when step time is more useful.

For example, playing an ensemble patch with flexibility and rubato will always sound fake, because no two people will ever agree 100% (see this thread for details). The individual; sloppiness tends to get evened out, so that dynamics and timing errors are less drastic.

However. solo wind instruments can benefit from real time playing, as long as you are using a Breath Controller. Using silly things like Mod Wheel will cause it to sound stilted, because what sounds good is often at odds with what your brain tells you it should be. When I started to use a BC I found it very hard, and I was pretty bad at it, but now that I'm used to it, I can play most stuff in real time, as long as I don't have to think about the keyboard aspect of it. As soon as i have to think about notes, the advantage of using a BC is lost. If I was primarily a woodwind player I might consider using a wind controller, but as I'm not, there would only be disadvantages for me.

My last vague point to make is that the only way to improve is to listen to music and try to analyse why it wounds better than your efforts. Mocking up (what a dreadful phrase) pieces where you have access to the recordings is the best way to learn, if you don't get the opportunity to sit in an orchestra and observe first hand how it all works.

Regarding William's point about sample performances sometimes being better than the "real" thing is a very complex one. In all of this we are talking about recorded music and in this respect the ear is a far more complicated bit of kit than any microphone. Sit in a concert hall, and your ear can easily pick out melodies, counter melodies, poly rhythms etc. Stick up a stereo microphone and you stand to lose an awful lot of this, no matter how good the engineer is. This is one reason why even so called classical recordings often use multi mike set-ups. However, as soon as we have our recorded performance the ability of the ear to understand very complex things in a live situation is lost. Therefore sample based performances are already closer in effect to a recording of the real thing.

One other point that has already been touched on is that unless the orchestra is of the highest quality, a recording, whilst sounding real, is not necessarily better. There is no good reason that pieces that are written for samples should sound better with live players. It may be that the general technical awkwardness won't give the right effect with a live performance. It may be that the rhythmic complexities would be too complicated to give a tight enough performance. there are many reasons. All I would say is that if it sounds good, it is good.

Now to define good......... [8-|]

DG

@William said:

 I have had some orchestras play the same pieces that samples were used on,  and the orchestral performances were vastly inferior to samples.  Everybody here seems to think that if their music is performed by a live orchestra it will sound like Bernstein conducting Beethoven's Ninth.  99% of the time it doesn't.  In fact, most of the time live orchestras are disturbing and embarrassing. 

The reason for this is that everyone has adapted to recordings, either on CD or in films.  And if you think you will get that 1% performing quality on most orchestras, you are in for a rude awakening.   

Say William (if you're still reading) thank you for posting this as it really opened my eyes on a lot of things and bolstered a theory that I have, or I stole from somebody smarter than me, that sometimes sampled orchestras just sound better than the real thing and vice versa.  You're absolutely right about MIDIstrators, such as myself, thinking that if I could only get a real orchestra to play this it would sound so much better.  It's as if that's the holy grail of MIDIstration.  More often than not, that's not the case so thanks for the reality check and in the back of my mind I kind of knew this to be true.   

And thank you DG for explaining why, in a detailed manner, sampled is sometimes sonically better than the real thing.  To be honest, I'm just an ex-piano teacher and I've never experienced the nuts and bolts of what an orchestra does to make a written score come alive.  Many years ago, I visited Eastern Europe and I watched a performance of Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5, which is my favorite Classical piece of all time, and I remembered hearing little nuances and details that I hadn't heard in any of the million times I listened to the piece on cassette and later CD.  I thought that maybe it was because this was a different interpretation of the piece then I was used to hearing but I think you just shed some light on something that I hadn't considered before.  Thanks again to you both.

And thank you Bbesse.  If you hadn't posted this in the first place I wouldn't have learned about this.

 Now, about that duel... Well, I'm a lover not a fighter.  

@DG said:

 That's all very well for people like yourself who have some eye to hand coordination, but for us dweebs, we have no chance. 

DG

Hand eye coordination is in everyone Daryl For goodness sake. I spent the day hitting golf balls down the driving range. That's a good way to develop hand eye coordination - not necessarily being a keyboard player.

What I would say in a very vague way too - is I notice in live performance the strings are always much quieter than expected and the stereo spread is a lot narrower than expected. Always catches me out every time. I just can't be bothered with using articulations. I write very minimal pieces and if I use more than 20 tracks I would need to see a doctor.

@Another User said:

I just can't be bothered with using articulations. I write very minimal pieces and if I use more than 20 tracks I would need to see a doctor.

Unfortunately I don't have either the luxury of writing for only 20 tracks, or seeing a doctor. [:(]

DG

@Another User said:

I also frequently see people on "virtual instrument" forums prattling on about the stereo image, when with a live performance it's very much blurred for the majority of instruments. Of course these people have probably never played in an orchestra and even if they have attended concerts, the band probably was playing Hollywood's greatest hits. For the last 10 years. Short concert, methinkls...!

I remember quite well starting at music college in 1970 and the nervousness one felt the moment the live paying with others began. Being a poor reader, lots of pre - playing work had to be done in my case. The live sound is very different to samples. The combos were probably very much as now - from quite small to orchestral at times. And the sound is also very different when you're actually in amongst it all and doing the playing as opposed to sitting out front just listening. Mind you, just listening is an art I've since acquired.

bbesse78_20408:

- Do you use the HP prefs for Finale that VSL supplies? These prefs will trigger all keyswitches for you and it will also use CC#11 for volume changes (instead of CC#7).

- When exporting a midi file from Finale, make sure you apply the HP plugin from the plug-in meny first. AND, most important, click on Preferences in the window that will appear and choose the VSL prefs again (even if they were chosen in the playback window). This is a minor bug in Finale and if you don't choose the VSL prefs in this step Finale will instead apply the default prefs made for GPO (that means incorrect keyswitches and volume is controlled by CC#7 instead of CC#11).

- When opening the midi-file in Logic (and maybe Cubase too?) it is most important that you OPEN the file and not IMPORT it. If you IMPORT the file to Logic all tempo information will be lost.

Some general tips & tricks for Finale/VSL can be found here

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/24478.aspx

@bbesse78_20408 said:

tempo changes, which I've yet to master, as I use Cubase.  Is there an easy way to change tempos that are continually changing rather than the stupid grid?

If you are someone to know what tempo and time sig you want in advance of working out the idea, you can set up the whole tempo map in advance here. I am not that person usually and I work entering bits of the performance via keyboard or drum controllers onto a smpte timeline, ignoring the whole idea of tempo and beats/bars until I require it. I tell you this only to indicate the 'warp' function in Cubase. You can drag the bar line to pretty much whereever in the music it has to be (as long as there are not tempo markings in the way that will cause a problem which I can't describe too well, in which case you just delete those). This is designed primarily so that one can bring in audio and determine where the beats and bars are from the actual audio. You have to ensure [in the inspector] that all of your tracks are 'bars and beats' and not 'time' oriented (or vice versal actually), or the ones that do not conform will not move with the rest when you alter the timeline.

If once you get going with this you have an issue that stymies you, feel free to PM me, I have a pretty thorough handle on this. I learned a lot by error...

@bbesse78_20408 said:

(2)  I write all my orchestrations in full in Finale and then save all the instruments into separate midi files, then I import them into Cubase, and record over the midi file adjusting tempos, and using key switches on the instruments when there is a trill, tremolo, pizz, or other variation.  The strings, harp, and other instruments move quickly, and I've found that trying to play the instruments in from my keyboard has never really been effective in getting all the runs, and scales playing together.  So my problem ... It sounds so mechanical, the strings are anything but legato, and there are no dynamics unless I assign the intensity to a controller knob and move it around whilst I am recording volume control.  I just don't understand how people like Thomas Bergersen is able to have these massive, huge lush sounding tracks ... does he use midi or does he actually play them in?  And if people sequence by playing the instruments by hand, how is it possible to get all of the runs, scales and passages together?  What is the best way to make it all realistic?

I am not any keyboard player, but (except where I am using a drum kit, where I use a drum controller) I enter initially with a keyboard controller and edit, largely by dragging notes, or copy/cut and paste once I am working polyphonically. Sometimes I can rely on things such as drum rolls and fills, upbeats etc in the actual VSL instrument, and there are available scales passages, trills, etc as well. In VI Pro, these *patches* can be time stretched or shrunk so we can fit them to our timings. As I am not good with the keyboard and it requires all my attention to enter the pitches, I do controller entry in another pass. I paint controller data in the lanes a lot, which is good for me after I got good at it... The controllers are key to your realism. If you like winds, a breath controller may be an investment. The instruments need to have the capacity for the amount of realism you desire, of course. I recommend VI Pro as a very powerful and intuitive interface to coordinate control here. Especially if they are still throwing in "flugelhorn" for free, which is worth nearly as much as the VI Pro software and is fantastic.