@cm said:

just to put some basic figures into the discussion:

the special edition bundle full contains about 35.000 samples for strings, the strings package full contains about 290.000.

purchasing the full strings package at USD 8.895.- you will receive a discount (for SE bundle full) of USD 583.- which pretty accurate reflects the number and value of the string samples from the SE bundle you have licensed already.

christian

Understood, but I don't look at things in terms of sheer numbers of samples. I never thought to myself "I would like 35,000 string samples...", I just said "I want legato on all the instruments, and staccatos, etc." In my view, articulations are the real measurement. I have most of them already! My greatest interest is the performance interval patches and runs that I don't have. But if you prefer to discuss sample counts, let's do some crude numbers: 290,000 divided by 2 for half tone sampling = 145,000... subtract about 60,000 samples for the con sordino patches (numbers estimated from the products page) since con sordino doesn't really add to the playing styles, that's 85,000. Now let's subtract the 35,000 samples I already have... 85,000 minus 35,000 = 50,000 string samples I don't have. The full Special Edition Bundle costs $2000 and has 133,370 samples total (which is 66 samples per 1$), so I calculate that those 50,000 string samples I want should cost 50,000/66 = $757. Of course, you might think this is a silly way to talk about things. Products are priced arbitrarily. I do this only to illustrate that it costs much more than I think it should to add more articulations to the strings I already have.

My point that follows from this -- a point you haven't addressed -- is that there's a demand you're not serving. It's not like I'm going to take that ~$1000 I want to spend on string improvements and say "Oh well, I'll just save that until I have another $8000 and get the strings package"... I'm most likely to go to another company that offers a similar product and try to fill the gaps in my collection that way. Do you see what I'm saying?

(by the way, I see no "your price" in the Strings Package product page... it only lists the full price of $8,895)

@clamnectar said:

(...) what I really want is the fast legato, con sordino, runs, glissandi, etc... all the good stuff from the Extended library.

I understand your dilemma, but who would buy the extended libraries if they could get all the good stuff in there at a much lower price? (as part of some kind of extension to the Special Edition Bundle, as you suggest)

Henrik

@clamnectar said:

(...) what I really want is the fast legato, con sordino, runs, glissandi, etc... all the good stuff from the Extended library.

I understand your dilemma, but who would buy the extended libraries if they could get all the good stuff in there at a much lower price? (as part of some kind of extension to the Special Edition Bundle, as you suggest)

Henrik

Great topis clamnectar!

I think clamnectar is right on this one. Here is a rational from VSL - if we will give those extra articulations (even at the cheaper price and full tone samples) who will buy the whole enchilada for 8 or 9K? But reality is exactly what clamnectar said - we (me too in this case, as I have exactly the same issue and need) will never pay the absurdly high price for the difference between what we have and what we will get paying this thousands of dollars. So VSL is loosing money. Absolutely right.

To have two-tier pricing for two different products with two levels of quality and features only make sense when the price truly reflects the difference.

I don't mean difference just in objective value (amount of samples for example), but mainly difference in how much the higher end product is worth that difference, and more - how much it will chnage my life as a composer.

That's where VSL is missing the point. And loosing money. Something could be done I think to accomodate this gap, as that is exactly what it is - a huge gap, without offending current users of the full library, or selling out cheap.

Thank you all for your thoughts, I enjoyed reading this, great topic and comments!

I must chime in here and agree that VSL strings of all sorts are in major need of a huge price over haul. First let me state that VSL is by far my favorite sound lib company and has been for a long time. Their customer service is the best I've seen yet and that's the reason I remain on these forums. Furthermore their development and coding and products are legendary. VSL SE was the best purchase I ever made music wise. But with that said, it's no secret that all VSL strings are now officially last generation, i.e. they no longer stand up or compete that well with the new generation which includes CS, HS, LASS, etc.

There is no reason that a last generation string should be priced at the same or well above the price of the new ones. Lass is currently 999 and will be 450 for Lite version soon whereas CS is around 600 give or take if I'm not mistaken yet all the additional VSL string libraries whether it's the regular ones or appassionatas are priced in the range of LASS full and HS Diamond which to me is crazy..

I would love to purchase more articulations myself but the current VSL ugprade model is obsolete and there's no way I'd pay that much for slight improvements. It needs to be completely overhauled if they want to make alot of $$$ fast.

Anyways, just my two cents. I love you guys at VSL and look forward to all your upcoming products especially the long awaited choirs do don't take this the wrong way, take it as constructive criticism from your loyal die hard customers and fans to improve your market model.

well, i wrote the special edition bundle full library has about 35.000 string samples, the strings bundle's full libraries have about 290.000.

i'm also confused how you could invest THOUSANDS into VSL libs having registered the special edition standard library ...

christian

I know listen, I'm not trying to be combative don't take it the wrong way. Yes 290,000 is a lot that's fine but like I said Hollywood Strings has voer 1,000,000 that's literally 3-4 times more.

Ok so I invested $1,500+ not "thousands" and plan to invest more, but that has nothing to do with my point in fact it only strengthens my point because I WOULD have invested THOUSANDS if the prices were a little more market conscious. I would have easily purchased more articulations and appassionata libraries but due to the rigid pricing for THAT particular need I will unfortunately be going to LASS/HS.

@requiem_aeternam7 said:

saw a VSL rep state that there's 35,000 samples or whatnot and that justifies the price, well upcoming Hollywood Strings has 1,000,000+ samples

1.000.000 samples don't surprise so much.

I'm pretty sure, that the 24 bit and 16 bit version are counted twice and also the 5 different mike positions.

So in fact there will be are around 100.000 different performed samples, that's more or less the same amount of our solostrings library.

best

Herb

@requiem_aeternam7 said:

Ok so I invested $1,500+ not "thousands"

sorry, then it seems something with your registrations is in disorder - the special edition standard library costs USD 465.-

christian

btw: i always thought the mozart avenue is in paris ....

Sorry perhaps something with your memory seems to be in disorder. Special Edition was around $1,500 when I purchased it and you thereafter discounted it. Or what's wrong you don't remember your own prices? I'd say some VSL price history re-education courses are in order for you. It would behoove you to learn to research your own product a little more diligently so that you don't look like an ass.

@requiem_aeternam7 said:

saw a VSL rep state that there's 35,000 samples or whatnot and that justifies the price, well upcoming Hollywood Strings has 1,000,000+ samples

1.000.000 samples don't surprise so much.

I'm pretty sure, that the 24 bit and 16 bit version are counted twice and also the 5 different mike positions.

So in fact there will be are around 100.000 different performed samples, that's more or less the same amount of our solostrings library.

best

Herb

Well now that's a respectful reply, is that so hard for "cm" to do? Either way, no need to get defensive these are just opinions we are stating. Perhaps we're wrong and your current market model is working supremely well and you're rolling in money and selling tons of Symphonic Cubes, I don't profess to know VSL's sales figures and in fact I hope they're high because as I said it's the highest quality sound lib in the world but all I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to at least evaluate the CONCERNS of many of your constituents because this is a valid issue I've heard expressed many times on other forums as well.

Here's a simple sample formula:

String Package A costs $2000 and this is deemed too expensive by Customer A and Customer B, whereas Customer C is made of money and purchases it. VSL has now profited $2000.

Scenario 2: String Package A price drops to $1000. Suddenly Customer A makes the purchase, Customer B makes the purchase, and Customer C also makes the purchase. VSL is now $3000 richer. Simple really. Obviously you know all this, but I'm just trying to illustrate my point you have to stay realistic and re-evaluate the current world market and conditions as well. Most of the world is going through a depression/recession, old business models are no longer holding up and need to be re-invented. No one is going to be spending 10,000$ on a library when composers can't even get work right now.

Once again like I said, this is just food for thought, no need to get defensive CM it only reeks of insecurity. I'm not saying I'm right, you guys could be doing very well and then I'm happy for you, but if not then well guess what maybe it's time to re-evaluate the opinions of some of your customers on this topic.

hm.... i just imagined such a discussion in a forum of a car manufacturer, like mercedes, in which people are frustrated that the top of the line S-class is just way more expensive than the cheapest car available. there should be no particular reason for mercedes to do that, because after all it is just another car... a little bigger, a little more technology in there, a little more effort... but still just a car that really doesn´t do anything more than getting you from A to B.and than count the parts and come up with the argument that a comparable audi consists of even more single parts but costs less...

i would also like to have the big package, but i can´t afford it right now and i have to live with the fact that i can´t... as i have to live with the fact that i can´t afford a villa, a porsche, a yacht... you name it... life is like that and i don´t think that complaining at the manufacturer about the reason that you don´t have the money to purchase their high-end product is an appropriate solution.

cheers

s.

@requiem_aeternam7 said:

something with your memory seems to be in disorder. Special Edition was around $1,500

now let us look at option two (something with your registration is in disorder):

- the special edition standard library at the time of purchase was USD 495.-

- i can see you ordered the full library for USD 1.170.-, but:

- you never registered and so never received a license for the extended library.

- i'll double check what happened to that serial number certificate to look less like an ass.

christian

@requiem_aeternam7 said:

no need to get defensive CM it only reeks of insecurity

i don't look at my reply as beeing defensive or reeking, it is just to put some figures into the right context.

 i don't like so much to speak in terms of last or current or next generation or qualifying product A as good and product B as bad.

i agree there may be a gap between the special edition and the full strings package which (in your case) could be filled partly with the special edition PLUS' sample content - you could also extend only the strings section with the ORCHESTRA Special Edition Strings PLUS

for certain reasons there are no single instruments download products available , which again could extend the SE + SE PLUS like with the other instrument sections.

i think VSL has proven the concept is not the worst one could think of and the modular structure meets many user's needs. it would be sad if there wouldn't be some space for improvements.

christian

@requiem_aeternam7 said:

no need to get defensive CM it only reeks of insecurity

i don't look at my reply as beeing defensive or reeking, it is just to put some figures into the right context.

 i don't like so much to speak in terms of last or current or next generation or qualifying product A as good and product B as bad.

i agree there may be a gap between the special edition and the full strings package which (in your case) could be filled partly with the special edition PLUS' sample content - you could also extend only the strings section with the ORCHESTRA Special Edition Strings PLUS

for certain reasons there are no single instruments download products available , which again could extend the SE + SE PLUS like with the other instrument sections.

i think VSL has proven the concept is not the worst one could think of and the modular structure meets many user's needs. it would be sad if there wouldn't be some space for improvements.

christian

I agree that the 'modular' concept model is in fact the best ever invented (whether it was invented by you guys or whomever else) because it allows us the customers the freedom to pick and choose what is right for US. However as others have pointed out perhaps if the modular concept would be expanded to allow even more specific choices for people who want certain things but not certain other things, etc, then maybe the model will be even more successful. As you can see by the responses here, which represent only a small amount of the vast sea of voices that I've heard mention this before on other forums, there are many people that would upgrade certain articulations etc if they could do so without paying huge amounts of money and having to purchase other things that they won't use, etc.

@requiem_aeternam7 said:

something with your memory seems to be in disorder. Special Edition was around $1,500

now let us look at option two (something with your registration is in disorder):

- the special edition standard library at the time of purchase was USD 495.-

- i can see you ordered the full library for USD 1.170.-, but:

- you never registered and so never received a license for the extended library.

- i'll double check what happened to that serial number certificate to look less like an ass.

christian

I'll be honest, all these different library names confuse the hell out of me. I don't even recall what it is that I ordered I just know that it was in that $1000+ price range and NOT 400$+

I have had a demo key of 100 some-odd starts for what I THINK is the extended edition. This 'demo' key just ran out about 3 days ago to my knowledge. It's all really confusing to me but are you telling me that I should have the full 'extended edition' key rather than just the demo key for a certain amount of starts? If that's the case then please don't hesitate to send me the new full key. [H]

you should have received 2008-05-22 (alongside with your special edition box) a serial number certificate with a serial number for the extended library.

i have already contacted the distributor who sent you the box and asked to double check on this issue before sending you a copy from our side - we are sorry if this sheet of paper didn't reach your desk properly.

for security and in case i don't hear back from them within the next few hours i've sent you a demo mode #2 code to allow you continuing your work.

christian

edit: please do not forget no vsldaemon must be running when adding the demo license (or any license), in doubt reboot before and watch the message after successful license download asking *start usage period now?*