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  • Just for the record, I am running Logic 9.0.2 under OS 10.5.8 on an 8-core Mac Pro. I use Vienna Instruments plus Vienna Ensemble.

    My VSL key is plugged into a USB slot on the front of my Mac Pro.

    I do not have ANY problems with VI or VE booting, or "white boxes" or any of the problems mentioned here. I believe that a full-blown bug would affect most if not all VSL users. I suspect that problems may be caused by unique combinations of software on peoples' systems, using the VSL key on a USB hub, not having all current Apple Pro-App updates installed, etc etc etc.

    I'm not trying to diminish the problems and frustrations that folks here may be having - just saying that there may be varied issues going on. 

    Regards - Colin


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    @musos said:

    My VSL key is plugged into a USB slot on the front of my Mac Pro.

    Hi Edgar & Colin,

    Colin, you may be on to something here.  Yes, when I was having all the problems just as Edgar is now experiencing, my VSL key was plugged into the back of my machine.  A few weeks ago, I noticed that my fans were running extremely fast, like it was going to take off or something.  Apple tech advised me to unplug everything from the machine and let it set for 30 minutes.

    I unplugged the dongles, monitors, power, firewire, the works then replugged everything back in only this time, I placed my VSL dongle in the front port.  To be honest, I have not seen any issues like Edgar is seeing since the dongle shuffle and I contributed the fix to recent software updates.  Just maybe it had nothing to do with software but the resetting of the hardware/software on the Mac by unplugging everything as recommended by the Apple Tech.

    Edgar, it may very well be worth trying what I did to see if it does improve on your end.  I know how frustrated you are because, like you, I was also launching the stand-alone version of VI before launching Logic just to ensure that things were going to work correctly.  As you stated, launching the stand-lone version did for me, display the box with an error message --- launching Logic first displays the white blank box behind the Logic window letting one think that everything was ok.  Totally understand....

    To save additional frustration and also based on the fact that I've been reading on other forums (and I believe that it was also stated on this forum) that Apple's implementation of USB is not as stable as it could be, I would try unplugging everything, let it set for 30 minutes, re-plug and be sure to have your VSL dongle in the front USB port.  Give it a try and see if you realize improved stability.  At this point you have nothing to loose.....

    Let me know if you should decide to try if it helps.


  • Thanks for all the useful tips. However, I still believe it is the vendor's responsibility at some point to step up and acknowledge the problem. There are too many reports of the same problem although just a minority in the whole picture. Nevertheless, if customers spend that much money on a product then there is some kind of obligation from the vendor.

    In an ideal world you might get a stable situation if you plug the one dongle in the front and yes there are issues with the USB ports on Macs. However more and more user have to use multiple dongles Again it is the vendors responsibility to find out specific hardware limitations, either before they release a product or after reports come in from the user. There is a thing called "System Requirement". If the excessive VSL authentication process sucks up more than 500mA of current through the USB port and causes the crash then maybe a note in the System Requirement is needed. "VSL authentication requires USB port to be hooked up to a nuclear power plant".

    If VSL continues to ignore to investigate/fix the problems then I may return the favor and ignore VSL in my next purchase decision. A previous post made it pretty clear. If someone want to spend thousands of dollars on a product and reads about those unresolved problems then he may look somewhere else. Simple as that.


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    @Edgar Rothermich said:

    There is a thing called "System Requirement". If the excessive VSL authentication process sucks up more than 500mA of current through the USB port and causes the crash

    ahead: an authentication process doesn't use current - it is always a device, the key is using just a few mA ...

     

    a USB device must use less than 100 mA (USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 low power) or if authorized by the operating system up to 500 mA (USB 2.0 high power) per USB port.

    that's the reason why many GSM-modems and harddisks come with adapters for 2 USB ports.

     

    however a badly designed device on the bus can reduce voltage on the bus so causing other devices not working properly.

     

    additionally you might be interested to hear that USB has specified a minimum plugin-cycle of 500 (USB 3.0 will increase this to 1.500, high quality connectors for USB 2.0 up to 5.000) and i have already a USB port on a computer which is definately electrically broken and does no longer provide a reliable connection.

     

    i don't understand how VSL could fix a USB problem on anyones computerc or smell what 3rd party device driver in the setup is screwing up the protocol ...

    christian


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @cm said:

    i don't understand how VSL could fix a USB problem on anyones computerc or smell what 3rd party device driver in the setup is screwing up the protocol ...

    There is a difference between a broken device and a device that doesn't meet specific requirements for proper operation.

    True, I could have a broken USB hub or port on my system, even a "half broken" device with intermittent problems. Strange thing is, that this device seems to be broken only under the operation with VI using the eLicense dongle. And even stranger, a fair amount of other user seem to have the same "broken" device judging by the posts on this forum. If that is true then I admit VSL cannot do anything about it. - Never mind.

    However, if this whole scenario is based on system requirements, too much peak current during the authorization or whatever (hey, I'm not an electric engineer either), then the ball is definitely in the VSL corner to look into that.

    If VSL thinks that there might be an issue and not just a bunch of whiny Mac users with broken USB connections then maybe VSL could use their next mailing list not just to announce more shiny new products (that also use the eLicense key, urggh) but attach a brief survey for the user with that USB problem to list their hardware/software setup and specify what USB and in what slot they are using, etc. Maybe you would find out some correlation, maybe 80% use the same brand of USB hub. Then the next VI update has a note in the System Requirements, warning users of the use of that specific USB hub, or use the eLicense key only on the front USB slot only Monday-Fridays, weekends is ok for use in either slots - you never know.

    I'm not trying to be a pain in the a**, just want that problem to be solved and I would guess a few other users would too.

    Thanks


  • This is a difficult problem to resolve, but Edgar does have a good suggestion about ways to try to quantify the issue, so that more of us can determine what are safe updates to do, whether we're better off with or without a hub, etc.

    As someone who has developed software and firmware for almost thirty years and been in several standards committees and cross-industry partnerships, I have deep sympathy for the dilemma that VSL faces in allocating resources for licenser issues vs. internal development.

    I got bitten, for the second time this year, on a proposed release date for software, by an unexpected update by Apple (this past summer, it was simultaneous updates by Apple and Sun), that broke certain aspects of long-working features. Do you think our clients care that it isn't "our fault" and that we have no direct visibility on the problem or any way to get customers to back out a Java update (not possible on the Mac, thanks to Apple's philosophy)? This ties up resources, which is hard with a small development team (or, in my case, individual). So it is always a balancing act.

    Users do not expect vendors to "pass the buck". So it is not surprising that there is some extreme anger being expressed here. My own anger, however, is directed at Steinberg. Yet I do accept that VSL cannot and should not be cavalier -- nor do I think they are behaving that way, by any means. Rather, I think Edgar himself has pointed out that there are so many variables, that it would be difficult for any vendor to test every possible combination of what clients may have.

    So this brings us back to the licensing choice itself. I personally feel that VSL should investigate abandoning eLicenser for something else -- especially as many of us now have large libraries and thus this approach to license verification is going to be a performance hit at some level, even in the best of circumstances. But as I have a very positive experience with another approach, I am more confident that eLicneser needn't necessarily be the only safe and viable choice for VSL to protect their property.

    B.F.D. 2.0 introduced a new license protection scheme by fxpansion, that is easy, safe, and non-invasive at run-time. I have no idea what they did, or even if they licensed it from someone else, but it seems to work for them, and though they don't have as many libraries as VSL does, their libraries are as big and deep as VSL's, so the stakes are about as high regarding piracy protection.

    Perhaps VSL could contact fxpansion (who are not competitive with VSL) and find out what the options might be?

    But who am I to prioritize this for them? I am merely suggesting it. There seem to be workarounds for almost everyone's problems with eLicenser, even if it can be a PITA at times. I'd rather have the Choir Library ready, personally. Choices do have to be made. If we want VSL to prioritize responsibility for eLicneser problems, we suffer in other ways. Think about it.

    Software engineers have a tendency to be too abstract and not grounded in the real world implications of their work (this is a big reason why I left the computer industry for the audio industry eleven years ago). I wish something could be done about that, but it is unlikely to change. I consider it inexcusable, when a license-oriented vendor such as PACE/iLok or eLicenser, doesn't calculate the harm to millions of end users of products for which they only themselves have an abstract connection. It's a disconnect, wherein the license vendor doesn't have sufficient incentive to make sure everything works.

    License protection, for better or worse, has to be less punitive regarding a user's hardware/software upgrade cycle and budgeting choices for when to get a new computer, than other software and hardware. This is probably why PACE/iLok chose the web browser as their licensing interface, to better decouple themselves from system requirements (although I am unable to use their website on certain popular and robust browsers on the Mac, and let them know, to which they replied that I should use Safari instead, even though that is a sluggish and relatively unsafe browser overall).


  • As I MacUser I agree - Syncrosoft is slow and troublesome. OK, I think I left the crisis behind with syncrosoft, it works halfway (which of course is just not acceptable to only work halfways). Also, the slowness of course also brings down loading times etc. which is annoying. Generally, I switched to VI about one year ago (at the time VSL gently pushed us to it) and - ok, there is a lot of intelligence in the GUI - but on the other side it is also a lot of switching pages in the GUI. (not to speak about the problem that the GUI is outside of the host for AU hosts - annoying) The samples are great, but considering everything I am not sure if I would recommend this product in the current state to other Mac user. Of course, software development is complicated, and there are a lot of parties involved there. But, when a company decides to go that route (which VSL did, from Libraries to players) - they take over that responsibility. it is that way. If they use syncrosoft - then they either can make enough pressure to assure that their own customers are satisfied, or they have to pay the bill (in whatever form that is). If I buy a product for thousands of Euro or $ I do not want to hear that it is the fault of Syncrosoft that I have trouble. It is that simple - this and that software works, this and that causes trouble - I do not care whose fault it is ... why should I? They have a business model and they know that they will be held responsible by the user in the end. (at least I think that is the best way, as syncrosoft and suchlike hide away behind them. But they knew that, and accepted that, so why not address them?) best

  • My problems have just escalated to having all my licenses disappear.

    elicenser is a huge problem for VSL and really needs to be addressed swiftly to restore confidence in the company.

    Tom


  • Sort of off topic, perhaps, but...

    My syncrosoft dongle just died.  It shows up in the eLicenser Control Center as a "Broken USB-eLicenser".  This is one I got with Cubase.  So I think Steinberg will replace it. But how do I transfer my VSL licenses to the new dongle when I get it?

    And also... I was in the middle of evaluating VE Pro.  Can I get a new trial license so I can complete that evaluation?  (I doubt I'll get this all sorted before the current trial expires.)

    Thanks!


  •  mccardell, to my knowledge in your case steinberg US would take care of replecements for steinberg keys & licenses..

    regarding VSL licenses there are 2 options:

    - you have a spare key (seems to be the case) and we send you a demo mode #1 license until everything has been worked out

    - you purchase a ViennaKey from ILIO or an authorized dealer which has already the 180 starts demo mode #1 license on it.

     

    please email VSL support which of your registered eLicensers died and your contact at steinberg support to receive permanent replacement licenses.

    christian


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  •  counterquestion (since you didn't mention this also in your email to support):

    - have you rebooted before updating the software?

    - did you repair permissions on your system volume afterwards?

    christian


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • I am assuming this last question was for me.

    Yes, I tried all that.

    I have now got it working again, but the most important factor seems to be that you have to have the key on a USB port all on its own. Since I have plugged it into the front USB port of the MacPro it is working (for how long I don't know yet).

    The funny thing is I had things working on a generic USB hub for a long time. Then with the more recent updates the elicenser seems to have become flakey when not plugged into its own dedicated USB port. I mean even the USB on the back of an Apple Display didn't work and that surely ought to be tested. It is certainly not acceptable for this dongle to require its own USB port. It is at high risk to be damaged sticking out the front of the MacPro (that's why I try not to use those ports), and the back is being used already. What about laptop users with very limited ports?

    Obviously this is a software issue with the new version(s) of elicenser and needs to be fixed urgently. What I had to go through to get my purchased software (hopefully) working again is simply not acceptable. Steinberg is a company that has for a long time now been less interested (and capable) in Mac development and to have the VSL protection mechanism depend on them is quite scary. I think VSL should have some contingency plan here as you really can't have professionals on a tight deadline dealing with this sort of crap.

    I will state again that iLok has been completely invisible to me just doing its thing on a generic USB hub with no delays and no problems whatsover. This is what I would expect from a classy product such as VSL produces. If not iLok then some other solution with competent programmers behind it. And for goodness sake stop it with the sample database checking upon each reboot. Once a month should be enough in addition to the license checking already taking place each launch.

    Cheers, Tom.


  • hi tom, at least good to hear you have it working again ...

     

    in apple keyboards, iMacs and apple displays you can find a wide range of USB hubs - eg. many devices don't work at all if they're plugged into the keyboard ...

     

    i know it doesn't help, but here is another strange story: for certain tasks i have a G4 mirrordoor standing beneath my desk with a generic (powered) hub which is needed because of only 3 USB ports ... while it wortked with 3 or 4 keys under 10.4.8 the same does not work with only 2 keys in 10.4.11 ... and i have absolutely no idea what might cause this behaviour because phisically nothing has changed.

     

    another annoying issue here with the apple display firewire hub - it is impossible to get any firewire disk (even a LaCie) mounted if connected to the display, but i'm considering it hopeless to get that solved by anyone ...

     

    third story (PC related in this case): we have a USB M-Audio keyboard which disconnects every time when a certain neon light is switched on or off (which is connected to a very different circuit btw) ... so who's to blame: the electricity company, the vendor of the lamp or the switch, M-Audio, the cable company? ... i don't know ... i simply don't switch it on or off when working ...

    christian


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @cm said:

    hi tom, at least good to hear you have it working again ...

    in apple keyboards, iMacs and apple displays you can find a wide range of USB hubs - eg. many devices don't work at all if they're plugged into the keyboard ...

    (edited)

    third story (PC related in this case): we have a USB M-Audio keyboard which disconnects every time when a certain neon light is switched on or off (which is connected to a very different circuit btw) ... so who's to blame: the electricity company, the vendor of the lamp or the switch, M-Audio, the cable company? ... i don't know ... i simply don't switch it on or off when working ...

    Hi Christian,

    Yes it is a good thing I got it work again because I'm in the middle of 2 projects and VSL stuff not working really freaked me out a bit.

    In reference to USB hubs, I can understand the nightmare of trying to test all the permutations of hardware on the PC side, but this is one area where Apple make things a bit easier because there is a relatively small number hardware permutations you have to test. The hub on the Apple keyboards you mention are actually stated to run only very low powered devices but other than that could certainly be tested for compatibility by a software vendor. There aren't so many Apple Displays that they can be allowed to slip through the testing protocols.

    I get the impression that we are simply dealing with Steinberg's inadequate support for Mac here, and VSL absolutely should take this up with them in a serious way because it is damaging their otherwise impressive image.

    Tom


  •  On my MAC keyboard I have the mouse plugged on the right USB socket and the Vienna key on the left side.

    It works very well and to me is far better than the GIGAstudio way of protection I used before VSL.


  • I haven't had an eLicenser issue since I plugged the dongle in the front USB port on my Mac Pro.  After all the discussion here on the forum, I thought I'd try re-plugging the dongle in the back port on the machine just to see if it makes a difference.  On the back is where the dongle was when I was having all the issues before.  

    Sure enough, on the third startup with the dongle in the back port, I got the infamous white box.  It's apparent that there is something in the USB ports on the Mac Pro that is causing the issue.

    I understand that one can set themselves up for failure if using a cheep USB hub, but to have failure on the machine's own port, not even the ones on the back of the monitor but on the actual box is unacceptable.

    BTW, my iLok is on the back and have never had any issues........


  • Questions for the VSL Team:

    Two major things have disappointed me with VSL and the Mac implementation (not counting the 64-bit thing) since I switched to Mac from PC two years ago.

    1.  The GUI interface interaction compared to the PC implementation.  This was the first negative issue I had the day I switched.  I understand having a separate server application on the Mac is the reason for the design but a real inconvenience and work-flow issue compared to the PC implementation.  The fact that VSL just operates (navigates) differently than any other instrument interface on the market when using a sequencer host is troublesome especially if one is not using VSL exclusively.  I understand that using Ensemble was an attempt to rectify this issue along with providing networking capability but for someone who wants to keep everything in their sequencer and only use the VI interface, adds another layer of potential issues, increased screen real estate, and redundancy considering that is the task of a sequence application -- to mix.

    2.  The license checking time at startup is different then any other instrument on the market.  The penalty experienced for having larger VSL libraries is unreal.  I know and have adapted basically out of necessity to go have a cup of coffee each time I start up.  If I have to reboot several times through the day, the coffee eventually changes to beer.  The point is, the user should not be penalized at the cost of software copy protection.  It is just not moral that those of us who have invested $20,000+ in a library, should have to pay for a shoddy implementation of copy protection.  After all, we spent the bucks --- we are not pirates!!!

    My questions:  

         1.  Does the VSL team plan to fix the VI interface to interact like any other instrument interface when hosted by a sequencer      application.?  Consistency and industry standards are essential (i.e. - not able to use the PLAY interface with VSL - MAJOR issue in both Ensemble and when using VI in the sequencer (Logic, Cubase & Pro Tools).

        2.  Does VSL have plans to adjust the path in how the software security is currently implemented considering all the end-user issues?

    I would hope that the numerous work-arounds that have been suggest by the team and have been implemented on this end is only TEMPORARY and not a final solutions to some real concerning issues.  


  • As a big fan of VSL I would second Chuck's comments. Unfortunately the workflow of using VI in say Logic is like climbing a brick wall - gets easier with practice but the wall's still there!

    I have the Vienna dongle plugged in the front USB slot of my mac it is no more or less reliable than when it was plugged in the Mac cinema displays but still occasionally throws up the white rectangle. Also sometimes when re-loading Logic songs that use Ensemble it can loose communication with the VE after receiving the warning the VE server is already running.

    Anyway a relaunch of Logic fixes it and it is just an inconvenience but still it would be better if it didn't happen.

    Julian


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    @Chuck Green said:

    I thought I'd try re-plugging the dongle in the back port on the machine just to see if it makes a difference.  On the back is where the dongle was when I was having all the issues before.  

    most obviously the conclusion is, that indeed there is a difference between the front and the rear USB ports.

    i don't have a macPro here (might actually differ by model) to double check in the system information if it is a different USB controller or maybe just an electrical or signaling issue.

     

    btw: how many licenses are on your iLok vs. on your eLicenser? if it is *only* an issue with the timing of the USB controller for the rear ports there might be a software fix possible, though probable suspicion would be the controller is slighly out of the USB specs.

    christian


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • ad 1) please remember the server solution has been introduced to allow accessing seperate memory (outside of the host application) which was (and basically still is) essential for loading a significant amount of data.

     

    there is a bunch of industry standards out there - some ore more open, some proprietary and/or closed ... VST (2, 3), AU, RTAS, MAS, TDM, ReWire, ect. not every vendor has a perfect implementation of the respective specification, some vendors are more responsive than others.

    currently i don't want to comment on PLAY at all.

     

    ad 2) the path how protection is currently implemented does also secure your investment very well - however there is nothing which can't be improved and VSL is aware that there _are_ issues (caused by whatever) and taking appropriate steps to de-escalate the problematic incidents.

    christian


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.