Speaking of the Charlton Heston "Ten Commandments," I believe there was another Ten Commandments, with a score by Randy Edelman.  Never saw the film, but thought the score was a good example of orchestra and electronic instruments.  ET?  Sure it was manipulative, but the production values and novelty made it a little more tolerable.  Same thing with Titanic.  Bad dialog, but made up for, in my opinion, by the great production, editing, etc.  As for the score... hmm...  I liked it.  Along with Legends of the Fall and Braveheart, a good James Horner score, at least to my untrained ear.  I'm not that keen on what he does now.

Cheers,     Tom 

@Errikos said:

"Gremlins", "The Legend", "The Final Conflict" (one of his very best!) - Jerry Goldsmith (most Oscars for Best Music for Bad Films)

Ya know I had thought of listing, The Final Conflict, but I really didn't think it was that bad of a film.  I agree, however, the score is more entertaining than the film. 

etc.

Well, of course it's all personal preference. I also think "The Final Conflict" is not the worst film ever made, and better than the second "Omen". Still, the narrative and most of the characters, were mono-dimensional, and the necessarily implied ecumenical scope of the film was non existent. If you don't have the budget, don't reach for the stars, or get better writers. The music of that film however brings to it dimensions of apocalypse, anticipation, darkness and triumph that the script and direction did not approach. For example consider the final scene, almost theatrical in its simplicity, Sam Neil kneeling on his own in front of just a source of - "divine" - light, mumbling and then dying in front of it. Then it's the mother running around some gothic structures... Nothing really, the Lord never appears other than for a split second glimpse and the camera leaves the light. It is Goldsmith who brings about the Aristotelian pathos and awe, and sings to the glory of God magnificently! Then there is the scherzo of the "Hunt Scene", etc., etc.

As far as "The Raiders", I feel that in its "Temple of Doom" incarnation, it is simply Williams at his finest as far as marches go (his trademark). Maybe because I can hear some Goldsmith in it, who knows...

Fahrenheit 451

Great question William - had fun trying to think of some. 'Somewhere In Time' must surely be up there - it's a sublime theme and score and the movie is just....

M

@Errikos said:

Goldsmith who brings about the Aristotelian pathos and awe, and sings to the glory of God magnificently! Then there is the scherzo of the "Hunt Scene", etc., etc.

This is what disturbs me about film music.  Someone creates great music and it is forever shackled to a tacky piece of garbage.  What happens to the artistry of Goldsmith?  It is dragged through the mud. 

So every film composer has to just hope that the film will be o.k.?  And not destroy his work by association?  It is no way to work.

That is not the least of it in this case. If I remember correctly, and to add insult to injury, the producers did not release the wonderful soundtrack for about six(!) years after the theatrical release... Not to mention that Ridley Scott thought Goldsmith's "Legend" soundtrack so inappropriate to his masterpiece that he replaced it with a Tangerine Dream score...

To be fair, there are a lot of great films with bad music in them - perhaps there should be a list of those here as well.

Whatever the case, I believe that the lesson for all aspiring composers to be learned here, is to get off their - deceptively high - horse, and fathom the fact that the masters of film music always maintain the high standard of their work regardless of that of their collaborators, because they know that in the end, no matter how good or bad the finished film is, it is their name that will be splashed across the big screen for the music credit, no one else's...

There are a lot of great films with non existent scores in them.

For example - Rear Window (1954)

@PaulR said:

There are a lot of great films with non existent scores in them.

 

I hesitate to mention this but Apocalypse Now comes to mind.  I know many would disagree and apparently the Golden Globe Award Committee did because they gave both Carmine and Francis Golden Globes.  I thought it was a innovative idea to use electronic elements to sonically represent "the horror!" of Col. Kurtz but the Moog collages just weren't working for me I guess.  As Errikos pointed out it's "all personal preference."  For the record, I think Carmine Coppola was a underrated composer.

Does anybody know if Goodfellas had an original score?  All I remember is a montage of period music.  In fact, I read that they spent almost as much money on licensing fees and royalties than they did on the actual production. 

I'm sure I'll think of more after I press the "Post" button.

Congratulations William for starting yet another thought provoking thread.  

Basic Instinct !

@Errikos said:

I believe that the lesson for all aspiring composers to be learned here, is to get off their - deceptively high - horse, and fathom the fact that the masters of film music always maintain the high standard of their work regardless of that of their collaborators, because they know that in the end, no matter how good or bad the finished film is, it is their name that will be splashed across the big screen for the music credit, no one else's...

This is supposed to be words of wisdom, but it is words of doom. 

The doom of the film composer, who is condemned to writing music for crap. Except for once in a while, when after years of labor  he claws and struggles his way upward to the highest goal conceivable within the art form - to write music for SOMETHING A LITTLE BETTER THAN CRAP!   Even Jerry Goldsmith, at the height of his powers.  As correctly pointed out - Basic Instinct.  A piece of rotting garbage, offered up to a brilliant genius for his music that will forever be sullied by the garbage.

My adivce is - don't get off your high horse.  Get on one.   You will be extremely original at the very least, because absolutely nobody else today even tries.

A lot of films over the last few years are such utter crap with exceptions every now and again. Very few good films are made these days because time and again they have to make money,  unless it's some sort of artistic thing like Glegarry Glenross or working for Robert Altman doing things like Gosford Park etc etc. You have to pander to the lowest common denominators in just about anything these days otherwise you kiss goodbye to 95% of any type of consumer - that's why there's no taste anymore. You can't make money with good taste.  Just look at the way people dress - for Christ Sake - do you think that someone who can't dress themselves properly are going to understand what constitutes a 'good film'?.

When you have these type of conversations you really need to split it into two sections - making money versus good taste that can only be brought about by a previously good education. Anyone can make money if that's their primary goal in life and lets nothing like good taste get in the way. The reason many overly intelligent people don't  make any money is because of just that - they let their intelligence and ergo, conscience get in the way. And that's why Hollywood in particular has no compunction in turning out crap most of the time. Let's face it - we've have 70 years of  f***k***war movies alone. So film music is really so unimportant nowadays because it's generic and sounds the same - that the answer really is in the question posed a the start of this thread.

On a positive note - I like the Swedish original of Wallander for tv (the English version is shit). Not especially original but somehow very relaxing. And the score (I have no idea who did it) is not in anyway overblown and works perfectly.

One ambitious film with no music at all is "Breaking the Waves" by Lars Van Trier.  The film was set up with chapters and titles, and pop songs were played only during the brief showing of the title pages.  It worked.  All in all, I'd rather have no music than the "Various Artists" compilations.

As for crap versus quality, the first run movie palace stuff, most of it is aimed at teenagers.  I just hope people keep supporting the small art house theaters.  

        Tom

I agree about the various artists approach.  I don't care whether or not it works - I dislike the use of pop songs in films. It is  crude and simplistic to slap a song underneath a scene.  Any moron can do that.   It also reduces film music to absolutely the lowest conceivable level artistically.      

Audiences will support the art house films because there will always be a market for truly good films, despite what the MBAs from Harvard who now control the film industry think. 

Some other films that had absolutely no music were the later Bunuel films, Phantom of Liberty and Discreet Charm of the Bourgoisie.  Those are brilliant films, and they did not suffer at all from no music.  If anything they were better because they had an irony and  starkness that any commentary from music would have ruined.  Also, Tarkovsky - who is now considered maybe the greatest of all filmmakers in history - had almost no music in his films.  Stalker had a little, but mostly he avoided it. 

The whole problem with film music is that it is always SAYING SOMETHING.  A scene should simple be allowed to exist for its own reality, without a composer telling you what to think or feel about it. 

Good point, William, but I'd add that a soundtrack's subtlety and sparing use go a long way in adding to the emotional experience of the viewer.  Some pretty good scores wore thin simply because they kept clattering about and overstayed their welcome.  And certainly most film scenes are so carefully contrived that their having "their own reality" is illusory, as it should be.  My biggest peeve, mentioned in another thread, is television's use of droning folky songs, lyrics too low to be understood, which imply they're revealing something wise about the "drama" in the scene.  It was a cheap trick at the get go, and now it's insufferable.  When my girlfriend watches her medical and family drama shows, I sit whining about the lame song soundtracks, so now she's perfectly happy if I don't watch them at all.  Hmm.  Who wins there...

You win, big! Do you know how many men - non musicians - envy you that good excuse you use to avoid those cretinous series (slow death of the soul). They instead have to "bond" with their mates on the couch during that absolute crap aimed 80% at women, when they almost never choose to sit through say a boxing match, a baseball game, etc. even though they are not on every single week-night for hours on end...

 How about Krull?

I know Horner gets a bad rep around here but at least that's him at his most fun and exciting (and with the LSO!) and Krull is about as bad a movie as could be made.

@bluejay said:

I know Horner gets a bad rep around here...

What's wrong with Horner?  I don't know about his present work but I think his score to Glory is still one of the best scores to a war movie ever composed.  The angelic boys choir, which soars above the ensemble, perpetuates the yearning of freedom the former slave soldiers felt and the sacrifice of life and innocence to earn that freedom.  I enjoyed the score more than I did the movie.  

The movie kind of pissed me off because it was historically inaccurate.  In reality, Col. Shaw was a whining mama's boy who had no desire to lead a regiment of black soldiers during the American Civil War because he knew that they would never be used in combat, only as laborers.  Upon constant whining to his parents, who were close personal friends to President Lincoln, did he finally get his way.  But, this is a thread for another forum.

@bluejay said:

 How about Krull?

I know Horner gets a bad rep around here but at least that's him at his most fun and exciting (and with the LSO!) and Krull is about as bad a movie as could be made.

It is fun and exciting, until you hear each of the things he stole deliberately.  That is the problem with Horner - the calculating plagiarism.  It is not influence such as John Williams' many influences within his own originality.  With Horner it is different, and out and out thievery.  And he did this repeatedly.  The fact he has the LSO to record his plagiarisms makes it worse and very depressing to me. 

I don't understand how you can continue to love somebody who does this.  Is this what you do?  To get a musical idea for a film score just listen to a classical symphony.  There's your theme.  The dumbells in the audience will never know because it is from classical music?  Well guess what Horner - I know.  Every time.  I sat in movie theaters hearing to my amazement one stolen theme after another, including actual stolen uncredited orchestrations along with the themes! 

One other thing on Horner - he is an example of the REVERSE of this thread mentioned earlier - bad music for great films.  The example I am thinking of right now is Wrath of Khan.  I recently wanted to see that again for the great story, the best acting ever by Shatner and Nimoy, great FX - but then stopped when I remembered the totally sucking incredibly trite score by Horner, with endlessly repeated augmented arpeggios in the violins signifying "OUTER SPACE" and the evil Khan motif stolen - as usual  - directly from Prokofiev's score to "Alexander Nevsky."

Hahah - I think the Wrath of Khan is a great film within that genre. Ricardo Montalban was great in that and interestingly - it would have been his birthday today. The music in that film is great and you of course know by now Bill that I never comment on James Horner for musical masonic reasons. [:P]

The score for Glory was stolen, I knew that even as a teenager although memory doesn't serve me with the particular source; I think it might have been Carmina Burana, don't quote me, but I certainly remember thinking then how derived it was. Perhaps it was the director's adherence to the temporary track, who knows...

The Wrath of Khan music may be what it is, but I was always impressed with the tutti cue where the two ships are confronting each other in orbit of that planet (Seti A V?).

Horner is a grand larcenist but his score to Aliens - in my opinion his best of the ones I know, is homogeneous and exemplary! Another good job he did was the whimsical, minimal score to one of the best light films ever, Sneakers.