Any more responses from anyone as to whether you are finding MIR to truly increase workflow time?

I am wondering if you all still find you have lots of "volume" tweaking to get things right as well.  The manual says MIR does all the panning, etc for you, but what if an instrument is to loud?  Are you still correcting that in your DAW?  I mean if you send all instruments from your DAW at the same level, MIR will probably do an amazing job at "mixing" that sound IF what you want is a complete blend of all instruments.  What about when you want sections to really stand out?  Are you adjusting it in your DAW or in MIR?

If I hook-up the midi output from my DAWs soundcard, to the midi input of the MIR soundcard, how many actual midi channels can I send over that connection?

Thanks,

Maestro2be

Hi Maestro2be (... I _really_ like your screen-handle ;-) ...) -

People are in the midst of building their new DAWs for Vienna MIR, or they are just getting their feet wet, so don't expect too many answers right now.

To keep things in perspective: While MIR has a lot of "built-in" intelligence and knowledge about the instruments used on its stages (more than any other system or mixing console ever built), it can't anticipate what _you_ are after as a composer/arranger/conductor. In other words: It is very easy to get a usable result with MIR and Vienna Instruments, but it is still your artistic decision to do those decisive final tweaks.

We took every effort to make this tweaking as musical and intuitive as possible, though. If an instrument is too loud or too weak, too close or too far away, too smooth or too bright - every change is done directly on stage, in direct interaction with one dedicated icon. I would consider the actual learning curve close too none-existant, once you have a running system.

Regarding your MIDI-question: The number of possible MIDI-channels depends only on  your system. Using MOL (MIDI over LAN), the number is more or less unlimited (was it 64 ports with 16 channels each, or something like that ..?), with "old-school" MIDI it will depend on the MIDI-connectors of your interfaces.

HTH,

At this point it would be wonderful to have some of the top-demos of the VSL website remixed with MIR.  (I know they are coming!)

Thanks Dietz.

I have initiated my demo this weekend and been getting it up and running which took most of the weekend and still some tweaking to do.  I am demoing MOL with it as it seems to be the best solution for it right now.  The learning curve to me seems much more simple the the multi auxilary bus sending etc I have to do in Logic and adjusting the 8 million parameters there.  Also it sounds superior in every way.  Now to get the bugs worked out though so I can actually use it to its potential (or should I say to the potential of my computer LOL)!

I am having an issue with it where if I move an instrument around the convolution never stops trying to adjust, the sound distorts into static and won't quit.  I end up having to close MIR and stop Logic 9, relaunch MIR and then restart the project in MIR.  Then once I adjust the "position" it does it again.  So if I either move the icon from its position to another spot on the stage OR if I simply rotate the icons direction, it does the same.  It happens about 9 out of 10 times.  Let me say the 1 out of 10 times it does work, it goes into static mode (where the reverb is adjusting and reloading the samples maybe??) which is what you clearly say it will do in the video.  But it does stop and actually let me keep working 1 out of 10 times.  All the rest of the times I have to reload MIR and of course that doesn't save my work or new position.

It does not mess up when I am playing with the gain control or sliders built on the instrument icon, it only happens when I try to reposition the instruments direction, or position on the stage.

Christian said that he could get me in touch with support specifically for MIR if I had issues.  Perhaps I could get someone or yourself to help me out.  I would love to get this working to see how much my machine can handle.  My specs are in my signature but I can give you any spec you need that is missing if you let me know what you need.

EDIT - Actually let me give some more very specific information for the programmers and techie nerds like myself :).

1.  I am currently using my RME Multiface 2 on this MIR Box with the PCI interface card and it's working fine.  I am sending the midi information from my MAC using Logic 9 using MOL which is also working.  I figured I would put my best soundcard on this box for the demo.  The driver is the most recent up to date.

2.  I am running Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit.  This was a fresh re-install, not a crap ass upgrade :).

3.  I have a Supermicro H8DCi motherboard with 16GB of RAM, two Opteron 290 processors.

4.  I have a NVIDIA 7900GT Video card.

5.  All samples and OS are on internal 7200RPM Seagate drives (OS and Samples are on seperate drives).  MIR is loaded on the OS drive and so is the room pack.

6.  Internal soundcard (onboard) is disabled in the bios.  I have an M-Audio PCI soundcard which is disabled in Windows 7 Device manager.  (It's actually not even installed because it's not Windows 7 certified yet, no drivers).

7.  Memory is all the exact same (Crucial).  DDR PC3200 • CL=3 • Registered • ECC • DDR400 • 2.6V • 256Meg x 72 •.

Thanks!

Maestro2be

Hi!

Thanks for the report - that's of course not what MIR is intended to do. Sorry to hear about your problems.  It's a real pity that you miss one of MIR's most decisive features right now ... :-/

Does this also happen when you rotate an icon not "on stage", but on behalf of the faders in the Instrument Channel? Did you try to change the graphical settings in the Preferences? Try to use a lower resolution for the venue map and see if it helps.

Do you control the MIR-PC directly, or via some type of remote desktop? If the latter is true, try to work directly on the PC, just to see if it was the culprit.

What's you system latency? Did you allow the RME-driver for larger latencies already?

You didn't see any error messages, did you? I have to admit that I can't say from the distance what makes your system crash so often, without going through the drill: Version numbers (software, OS, drivers), system specs (down to the type of RAM and graphics card), system settings (audio latency, buffer settings etc.). 

EDIT: Looking at your specs again, it _might_ be that you're facing a WinXP-related problem. We strongly suggest Vista or Windows7 for the use with MIR.

EDIT 2: I just saw that you edited your message while I was editing mine 8-) ... forget about the XP-statement, as you're on W7, obviously.

Sorry Dietz I accidentally forgot to update my signature with Windows 7 (just installed it this weekend).  I edited the post above with a lot of details.  I will answer the rest of your questions here.

1.  Yes, "rotating" the instrument causes it to do the same thing as stated above (1 out of 10 times it will actually stop distorting and go back to normal.  However using the faders does not cause this.  They work perfectly.  It's only when I physically move the instrument in some way (rotate or physically move it to the back of the room etc).

2.  My hardware revision number on my RME card is 17/55 (most current) and the driver version is 3.081 which is the most recent August 21st, 2009.  It plays media files and everything else perfectly.  VE Pro and VE3 also work perfectly.  I installed them to be sure that it wasn't the soundcard.

3.  I have not tried lowering the resolution.  As a matter of fact, I notice that I cannot even see all of the MIR window (the bottom of the window is missing and cut off).  I have the window maximized, but it still is chopping off the bottom and there is no way for me to scroll down and see the rest of the window (such as changing the venue, I have to literally hit tab and "guess" how many tabs until it's on the "ok" button which I cannot see).

4.  I first tried doing Remote Desktop from my MacBook Pro and that didn't work to well (I was getting a huge white screen for a stage and nothing I did would get it back except reloading).  This would also happen when using the PC locally but not nearly as often.  As a matter of fact, I think it was always a result of me going into the other room, connecting with Remote Desktop and then it would screw up MIR's window.

5.  My video card driver is NVIDIA version 191.07, dated October 5th, 2009.

6.  System latency is set to 512 samples on the RME Card.  Thenin MIR, I left the "default" which is literally what MIR says for the setting.  It doesn't say 512 or 1024 etc, it literally says "default" which I assume means use the settings from the RME control panel?  I have not tried raising this but I can certainly try going to 1024 and 2048 samples.  I really don't care about latency for playback.

7.  I see absolutely no error messages.  The thing is, it doesn't crash per say.  It just goes into a never ending static distortion and I have to kill it because it's driving me insane.  It actually is still responding.  I can continue to move instruments, change venue, etc.  I can do everything!  I just can't get the static to stop and then I begin hearing all the little voices in my head as I want to dig and claw at them!  LOL.

8.  The OS Version is "Windows 7 Enterprise" and I will get you the build number later as I am not in front of it.  I can tell you though that it is the most recent build as I literally just downloaded it on Thursday from Microsoft as part of my SA Agreement.

Anything else?

Maestro2be

Uhhmmm ... you can't see MIR's window as a whole? 8-/ ... what is your monitor able to display, pixel-wise? - Just to make sure: I wasn't talking about lowering the monitor-resolution in Windows' control panel, but the option to decrease the details of the Venue Maps within MIR (it's in the Preferences). Leave Windows' color-bit depth at 32 bit under all circumstances, BTW!

Still, I have the strange feeling that your problem is somehow related to issues with the GUI more than the actual engine.

I will ask our developers if they can chime in. In the meantime, please just try one little workaround: Do the clicks (and thus the voices in your head ;-D ...) stop when you switch off the engine on behalf of the START-button on the top left of the main window, and then on again after a few seconds?

@cgernaey said:

[...] 6.  System latency is set to 512 samples on the RME Card.  Then in MIR, I left the "default" which is literally what MIR says for the setting.  It doesn't say 512 or 1024 etc, it literally says "default" which I assume means use the settings from the RME control panel? [...]

Exactly. Just to be sure - try 1024 samples in the driver panel and listen if it changes anything (... although I don't think so - personally I can run MIR with 128 samples latency and a handful of VIs without problems).

I am running at 1024x768 with 32bit color and 75hz refresh rate.  That is the max for the monitor.  (it's a standard monitor CRT, not an LCD).  Compaq V710.

I believe I tried hitting the START button (which turned it black/off) and then restarted it (turned blue and it reloaded all the reverb files as I seen it doing so along the bottom blue progress bar in MIR) and it didn't help.  I will try it again anyway to let you know for certain.

Maestro2be

@cgernaey said:

I am running at 1024x768 [...]

I see - that's a bit too small.

Well I can certainly purchase a new monitor for the machine no problem.  But it will be at least 1-2 weeks.  So, even though I can't see the entire screen, the only issue I am really having is the nonstop distortion.  So with that said, do you find "replacing the monitor" an aboslute critical step of troubleshooting this sound problem?

Could it be being caused by the low resolution?

Maestro2be

@Another User said:

Could it be being caused by the low resolution?

Maestro2be

It _could_ have been related to 16 bit color depth, but not to the size.

 Hi Maestro2be,

to narrow down this issue, please perform these tests:

• Set the Venue Animation Speed to 100% (Options -> Preferences; requires restart) - does this change the never-ending impulse update?
• Have a look at the IR-update icon at the lower right corner of MIR - is it always active while you hear the "static sound"`?
• How much CPU load do you get in this situation?
• When you switch off MIR engine (right after starting MIR) and move an instrument icon around at the stage - how much CPU load do you get now?
• How much memory does MIR allocate on your machine?

And just to be sure - did you get any error message or hard crash? In this case a dump file would be useful... 

(When I tried to run MIR on an AMD machine the last time, it just crashed...)

Thank you, Florian

Florian,

Thanks for chiming in.  I will perform all of those tests and get back to you.

I do have a question though.  Where would I find the crash log for this because I think one or two times, it did in fact give me the "Windows 7" crash window which is new to me (but it did say MIR crashed and blah blah blah).  Where will that log be?

But so we are clear, it never crashed in the sense that it just disappeared and shut down on me.  It did however NOT like it when I tried to CLOSE it during the never-ending impulse loading distortion.

Maestro2be

 When you get the crash window, just open the task manager, right-click on "Vienna MIR.exe" in Processes tab and choose "Create Dump File". After the file is stored a pop up message will tell you the location of the file.

Just send me a message when you got a dump file, then I'll tell you how to upload it.

Florian

Ok Here we go with the updates (now that I am in front of the machine, everything else was from memory :).

1.  Windows 7 Enterprise information - 7600.win7_rtm.090713-1255

2.  I set Latency to 1024 in the RME configuration settings.  I left MIR set to "Def".

3.  Venue Animation Speed is set to 100% (it already was I didn't have to do anything).

4.  I was wrong earlier.  My monitor will in fact go WAY BEYOND 1024 x 768.  I set it to 1280 x 1024, 32bit color 75hz and MIR fits in the screen.  Wow is all of this text etc small LOL!

5.  Unfortunately (actually fortunately lol) I haven't been able to reproduce this problem but once.  I stopped the engine, and started it a few times in a row and it went bonkers and the never ending distortion started.  Then I gracefully stopped the engine one more time, waited a minute, started it up and let it get time to catch up and viola it worked fine.  I don't consider this a bug, it was me purposely trying to screw it up since I knew it couldn't possibly catch up to me stopping and starting the service so many times that quickly.

6.  My MIR Buffer multiplier is set to 2X at the moment, is that correct?  (I have 2 processors with dual cores each, total 4 cores).

7.  MIR Venue detail image level is set to 1X, is that good or should I set it to .5 or .25?

FIRST TEST - Ok after setting things to 1024 in RME and left MIR at "Def", it worked and I couldn't reproduce the problem until I did step 5 (force MIR to go bonkers by stopping and restarting the engine).  However, it eventually evened itself out after a minute.  I was hitting about 70% CPU here with 14 instruments going nonstop.

SECOND TEST - Set the latency to 256 samples in RME, Left MIR at "Def".  Was pushing 100% CPU the entire time.  No matter what I did, this one was in the red constantly.  This is not a good setting for my system lol.

THIRD TEST - Set the latency to 2048 samples.  System worked flawlessly, MIR was rock solid and never distorted once (I am actually in loop mode right now listening to it streamed from Logic over MOL, I am not using Remote desktop, I am physically walking from MAC to MIR machine).  The CPU is not hitting more then 30-40% while playback.  It is hitting about 60-65% when I start moving the instruments around and rotating them BUT it never distorts or stops and crashes.  After I STOP rotating the instrument or moving it, it returns to a very comfy 30% CPU.

So, Third test is where I am leaving it for now.  I assume it had a lot to do with the Latency settings mixed with low video resolution.  It seems fixed but I have one little bug now that maybe was there but didn't notice it.  I am getting stuck instruments and notes when the music stops etc.  Example would be, at the end of the piece, the violas are still playing.  I go STOP Logic from playback, and yet MIR is still playing notes for a few instruments.  I fix it by stopping the engine and restarting.

Other then that, it all seems to work flawlessly on my AMD machine :).  Do I get a cookie?

Are there are any tests or information you want from me with this AMD system since it sounds like yours don't work as stable as mine?

Maestro2be

Yes.  I made that apparent from the first day that I use an AMD processor :) and it was in my signature lol.  When I spoke to Christian we knew there was a possibility of a few issues but that he would see if he could get the programmers to help out.  And as you can see, there really wasn't any real incompatibility between AMD and MIR, it was just a few settings tweaks that needed to happen (at least in the case of my AMD setup).

I ended up using the system all night last night flawlessly.  It definitely uses a lot of resources and requires a fast memory bus.  That is definitely the weak chain in my link and I suspect in most setups.  I haven't pushed it to the max yet though so it will be interesting to see how many instruments I can get at once.  So far with the 14-15 instruments it was only at 30-40% CPU with the latency of 1024 or 2048.  If I can get a good 20-25 out of my setup, I will be very happy as I don't really use more then that on any of my projects at the moment.  I will test that tonight if possible.

I really appreciate the help Dietz :) in helping me get this to work.  I think I also figured out why the Remote Desktop was not acting properly.  On my MAC, I have a second monitor attached which is sitting on my digital piano so that I can watch what's going on while I record.  Well, the resolution on it for some reason was only set to 800x600 and it was affecting the remote desktop session (putting it in 800x600 mode).  That would definitely cause GUI issues with MIR.  I am going to test a higher resolution tonight and I bet it works.

Any chance you could answer the last few settings questions I had above please :)?  (the Venue detail and Buffer size).

Maestro2be

Yes, now I see it too - I think I just didn't _want_ to see an AMD as part of the equation. 😉

@cgernaey said:

[...] 

6.  My MIR Buffer multiplier is set to 2X at the moment, is that correct?  (I have 2 processors with dual cores each, total 4 cores).

7.  MIR Venue detail image level is set to 1X, is that good or should I set it to .5 or .25?

[...]

Larger buffer sizes will just allow MIR for more "time" to process IRs. Think of it as additional latency. In general, try to use buffer-settings as low as possible for a project you work on (this will of course depend a lot on its size).

Venue detail should be left at 1x (full resolution) under normal conditions. This parameter is here to help in special situations like Remote Desktop incompatibilities and the like. Animation Speed can be set as low as 20 or 30% for smooth zooms into the Venue Map. Raise it again if you encounter unforseen problems.

HTH, 

Thanks Dietz :).

For what it's worth, this application is simply unreal.  You guys did such an inbelievable job.  It's so advanced it's quite mind blowing but yet the learning curve was almost nothing (at least for a techie guy like myself).  I found it WAY easier to learn then the standard Space Designer, send to 28 different aux channels, then through 18 different layers to get different depths and other stuff...  It is just way to complicated that way (I know it works but to me it's to much of a time waste).

I am going to go ahead and dive in Dietz.  You guys have been amazing to me over the years and the products first class.  I have some open questions with Christian and Herb on this but I am going to go ahead and purchase it and let them think about it and get back to me.  I will be sending you guys my purchase email in a few days.

So be ready for more questions from me because I am going to stop with the old way of doing it as it's to cumbersome.  Going to change my workflow and setup into a MIR solution.  Just a few days of demoing it and I can already see how it will change my musical creation experience.  It will certainly speed up my song writing and I can't wait to see what advancements you all do with it.

Maestro2be