Logic Mixdown Questions, To Sum or Not To Sum

[pscart]

Greetings All, I have just started using Logic, but still use my DIGI 002 interface, yeah I know, bad idea. My question is, if I am using purely VSL samples, does the DIGI 002 affect mixdown? I am setting my projects at 48khz and 24bit because I am working on some film music. I also did a crazy experiment where I used and outboard mixer and brought the analog mix back into Logic. This, believe it or not produced some nice sounding results, albeit introducing a bit of noise. So to sum up, would my VSL mixes sound better if I were using say an Apogee Ensemble or RME Fireface because of the better digital converters? Or, is this only an issue when recording live sounds? Also, would the mixes sound better if I used an analog summing amplifier like the Dangerous D-Box? -Peter

[MS]

Q: If I am using purely VSL samples, does the DIGI 002 affect mixdown? I am setting my projects at 48khz and 24bit because I am working on some film music.

A: Each Vienna Instrument will use a samplerateconverter to go from the 44.1kHz core to 48kHz. The quality of this conversion is very high, however.

Q: Would my VSL mixes sound better if I were using say an Apogee Ensemble or RME Fireface because of the better digital converters?

A: If you are going through analog stages in your mixdown, the quality of the converters will naturally affect the final result.

Q:Would the mixes sound better if I used an analog summing amplifier like the Dangerous D-Box?

A: I've always been of the opinion that investing in a better coffee machine and higher quality coffe beans - will give you a better end result than an esoteric analog summing box. I stand by this opinion.

[florian]

@MS said:

I've always been of the opinion that investing in a better coffee machine and higher quality coffe beans - will give you a better end result than an esoteric analog summing box. I stand by this opinion.

LOL[:D]

[Dietz]

@MS said:

[...]  I've always been of the opinion that investing in a better coffee machine and higher quality coffe beans - will give you a better end result than an esoteric analog summing box. I stand by this opinion.

To Peter: The point is that there are most likely more crucial aspects in your working enviroment than the question if some analogue distortion will give you better mixes or not. Personally, I always suggest to invest in room acoustics rather than some "tasty" additions to the signal chain. Chances are 90:10 that your mixes will improve although the components used remained the same, just because you will hear more easily what's going on.

[pscart]

Just to reiterate. The S/R converter is in Logic then and not through the DIGI 002 right? Also, in using even my cheap Mackie mixer to mix "outside of the box" gave me a noticeable sound difference; More dimension and everything got it's sonic space back. The only thing, as I said was a small amount of noise was introduced. I'm sure a quieter summing amp would eliminate this. I should post the sound files. People who were not even musicians noticed a huge difference. So I beg to differ on your opinion of summing amplifiers. -Peter

[pscart]

The point about room acoustics is a good one. In fact I think I definitely need to get a go D/A converter between my rig and the monitors. Witout that it is very hard to tell what the heck is going on in the digital domain. I'm sure everyone has experienced the dreaded "It sounded good while I was mixing!" effect. Any suggestions on a good D/A converter? A colleague of mine used the Apogee Mini DAC for this. Has anyone heard the RME? -Pete

[Dietz]

RME offer very good quality in their pricerange. If you want to hear a _real_ difference, you have to aim for Weiss, Prism, Lavry or similar hi-end converters, though. 

If you want that "analogue" flavour in a digital box, combined with nice converters, get a HEDD-192 from CraneSong.

[Dietz]

@pscart said:

Just to reiterate. The S/R converter is in Logic then and not through the DIGI 002 right? Also, in using even my cheap Mackie mixer to mix "outside of the box" gave me a noticeable sound difference; More dimension and everything got it's sonic space back. The only thing, as I said was a small amount of noise was introduced. I'm sure a quieter summing amp would eliminate this. I should post the sound files. People who were not even musicians noticed a huge difference. So I beg to differ on your opinion of summing amplifiers. -Peter

Before you do that, check that the examples are matched volume-wise, down to 0.01 dB. Most of the time, people are fooled by mere volume changes: Louder is always "better".

That said, I happily admit that I _love_ analogue distortion - but it doesn't make a bad mix sound good. 

[pscart]

Hello Dietz, Thanks so much for the info. Should I invest in the Apogee Ensemble for the front end? Will that make a difference in the sound of the VSL samples, or is that completely bypassed when the samples are triggered? I'm just trying to figure out if it matters to virtual instruments what front end you have, or does that only affect what's recorded 'live'? Thanks. -Pete

[pscart]

BTW It wasn't just a volume difference, the whole mix sat better in the sonic space; reverb tails sounded better, delay and panning effects were more present, etc.... I am a little more experienced in mixing than that. In fact I dislike this recent obsession with "Louder is better!" That's why we have volume knobs!!! You lose all the dynamic range when you slam everything through a brickwall limiter.

[Dietz]

I wasn't talking about the current Loudness War. The same audio signal always sounds "better" in direct comparison if its level is raised just a little bit (0.25 to 0.5 dB, just below the amount the human ear will perceive as louder).

[Dietz]

@pscart said:

Hello Dietz, Thanks so much for the info. Should I invest in the Apogee Ensemble for the front end? Will that make a difference in the sound of the VSL samples, or is that completely bypassed when the samples are triggered? I'm just trying to figure out if it matters to virtual instruments what front end you have, or does that only affect what's recorded 'live'? Thanks. -Pete

You're welcome. 

A good converter frontend always makes sense, but it has no _direct_ effect on the samples of an Vienna Instrument. You could listen to them in 8-bit mono, and as long as you bounce your mix internally, the final output will sound perfectly fine when played on a proper audio system.

The opposite is true when you plan to mix externally on an analogue console (or summing bus, or whatever). In this scenario, the converters will of course have direct effect on the sound quality you will be able to achieve. 

HTH,