Yeah, that episode is another outstanding one - it had an impressionistic film-noir set, combined with that great music.  Pure image and sound together. 

What impressed me about those scores was how by using a small ensemble, or even solos, the composer did more for each player than a typical score for orchestra, with strings in near-comatose boredom grinding out block chords, brass playing fanfares, woodwinds playing stupid filagrees, etc. etc. etc. We are now in a state of total standardization of film music just as much as in the 1940s studio era, when every score sounded like Rachmaninoff-Brahms-Tchaikovsky-Lite.   Only today, people are doing Herrmann-Goldsmith-Dumbed-Down.  

I would just love to hear one of the big composers today write for and personally score three solo orchestral instruments for the entire score. 

It is not going to happen.  Because they are flat-out incapable of that kind of orchestration.  To do that, you have to know the instruments as well as Mahler did.   And that is the kind of knowledge Herrmann had.  His orchestrational experiments are beyond almost all concert music, and totally blow away other film music.

Just wanted to say I agree with your sentiments about the amazing scores Herrmann and Goldsmith produced for TTZ. I can't say I recall the details as well as you but I do distinctly remember some amazing cues.

I sometimes compose music for theatre and even though it's played back from a CD/minidisc rather than played by live musicians, I did on at least one commission severely restrict my instruments for the sake of experimentation. It was a very satisfying job (even though my results were nowhere near as good as Messrs Goldsmith & Herrmann)!

Best,

M

@mosso said:

Just wanted to say I agree with your sentiments about the amazing scores Herrmann and Goldsmith produced for TTZ. I can't say I recall the details as well as you but I do distinctly remember some amazing cues.

This is the tv music I grew up with as a kid to early teenager. This is the music that affects you most when you're that age. The only problem with this quality of music is that you then have to put up with the f******* awful crap later on in life.

Herrmann and Goldsmith were constrained by budgets. But not by talent thankfully. 'Walking Distance" may actually be the best TV score ever written.

@William said:

I would just love to hear one of the big composers today write for and personally score three solo orchestral instruments for the entire score. 

It is not going to happen.  Because they are flat-out incapable of that kind of orchestration.  To do that, you have to know the instruments as well as Mahler did.   And that is the kind of knowledge Herrmann had.  His orchestrational experiments are beyond almost all concert music, and totally blow away other film music.

Is it a case of the composer being "flat-out incapable of that kind of orchestration" or the shows producers being flat-out incapable of knowing what's good when they hear it.  You may be right but it could also be that the composer originally wrote something more subtle but when the producers heard it they said, "what the hell is this crap.  Where's the block string chords, the brass fanfares and the stupid woodwind filagrees that I hired you to compose.  If I want art, I'll dig up Hermann and have him score my show.  Just set the mood!"

When you mentioned block string chords it reminded me of a particular favorite dramatic TV show of mine.  I'm not going to mention the name of this show because perhaps the composer is out there reading this but I love everything about this show except the music.  The writing is superb, the acting is top notch, the direction is edgy and fresh but the music is just a succession of bland block string chords.  And they're fake strings too.  I don't mind fake strings but at least make an effort to hide their fakeness.  Dump Garritan and get VSL for God's sake.  I've noticed a lot of TV shows are like this now, especially dramas.

I think I'm a little younger than the previous posters but Alexander Courage and later Mike Post were TV composers that I grew up with.  One of my favorite TV themes is the Copelandesque Courage/Goldsmith collaboration for The Waltons.  Of course, who could forget the original Star Trek theme.  What I like about Mike Post is that he's edgier and likes to take risks instead of just going through the motions.  This shows with his theme for The Rockford Files,  but my favorite Post theme is Hillstreet Blues.  Often, he thinks outside of the orchestral box. 

Then again, you guys are talking about individual episodes and not themes.  I only remember episodes of Miami Vice having interesting music.  Yeah I know, you're all probably wincing right now.  Jan Hammer?  Are you kidding?  No I'm not, but to be honest, I never really cared much for the main theme.  The music in a lot of the individual episodes, however, was very provocative and moving.  I especially liked "Sonny's Theme."

Re: Goldsmith.  It seemed that the more intimate Goldsmith composed the more brilliant he was.  I read somewhere that the producers of Patton almost fired him because they wanted Patton's theme to be more of the cliché fanfare fife and drum fitting of a famous general instead of the simple trumpet phrase with the delay effect that he composed.  General George S. Patton believed in reincarnation.  The echoing trumpets are echoes from the past.  They represent the past lives that General Patton lived, the past battles that he fought the past deaths that he suffered and all of his rebirths.  Brilliant!  In the end, the delayed trumpet was kept as an introduction to a bigger score.

Even those of us in the younger generations miss the greats like Hermann and Goldsmith.

@jasensmith said:

Goldsmith.  It seemed that the more intimate Goldsmith composed the more brilliant he was.  I read somewhere that the producers of Patton almost fired him because they wanted Patton's theme to be more of the cliché fanfare fife and drum fitting of a famous general instead of the simple trumpet phrase with the delay effect that he composed.  General George S. Patton believed in reincarnation.  The echoing trumpets are echoes from the past. 

That is a fantastic observation!  You are right about that - especially with the Patton obsession with the warriors of the past. Goldsmith actually incorporated that into the orchestration with echoing trumpet fanfares.  That blows me away.  

As I understand it, the 'reincarnation theme' (trumpet through Echoplex) was added after the score was finished. The Patton Military March tune is not just a great film tune but one of the great compositions in that style in US history. That's up there with Souza's work I would say.

That is definitely true.  I was thinking about that march today - it has a contapuntal style that is reminiscent of Bach (like in Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring) with a complex main melody that has a chorale-like countermelody that is simpler but equally memorable.  You could say that score is an example of virtuoso film music.  Especially thinking about how a film composer can do the minimum - say, block chords or rhythm pads - and actually succeed in scoring the scene.   But Goldsmith did the maximum.  Without ever doing too much.  With both him and Herrmann,  I never once - even once - heard a score that had too much and was taking over the scene.  They always fit in perfectly, but just happen also to be great music.  

I agree. Both composers could do very complex music and it would work perfectly. Both could also write very simply and say everything. Herrmann is the king of the simple or spare idea saying tons. He's the master of psychology conveyed through music.

Yeah- Mike Post. He wrote musical themes you could remember. You could be in another room and one of his themes would tell you what was on without actually seeing the tv screen. Imagine that happening today? [:P]

Those themes seem to be out of favour these days. Probably because they can't write them anymore. It takes skill and imagination to write themes you can remember 20 seconds after you first heard it.

The echoing trumpets in Patton were extremely effective and I still remember that from being in the cinema when the film came out. One of Goldsmith's trademarks of course. The echoing pizz strings from Alien for instance.

Miami Vice was a very good theme given the narrow area of time and fashion it was trying to represent i.e the 80's with rolled up jacket sleeves, fake tans, fake cars and unbelievable hair styles - and that was just the males. I think I remember Jan Hammer working on a Fairlight to get some of that sound and it was very good playing.

I have to add Erich Korngold to that exclusive list of the greatest film composers that includes Herrmann, Goldsmith and Williams because his scores were actually the most complex contrapuntally, harmonically and orchestrationally. John Williams has done some outstanding concert music as well, but some of Herrmann's concert music for orchestra is not as good as his film music. Like his symphony - it seemed a little dull to me.  Though his chamber pieces  are fantastic, like the Souvenir de Voyage and Echoes for string quartet.  However, with Korngold, his concert music is the best of all these composers, with his great concertos and operas.  Die Tote Stadt is one of the greatest modern operas.  Dave, did Jerry Goldsmith write much concert music?  Or does anyone know about that?  I have never heard any concert pieces he did.

No question that Korngold's concert works are the best of the composers mentioned here. Only Rosza's concert works could possibly be compared. Die Tote Stadt is an amazing work and hold's it's own against works of that era. In fact it has original elements in content and orchestration that are singular to Korngold.

Yes William, Jerry did write a few concert works but I couldn't name them and don't think I've heard them. I think they were specifically commissioned by certain American orchestras. I will see what I can dig up.

 EDIT: Found a little on Wikipedia. Goldsmith never cared for the term "film composer", as he also wrote a fair amount of "absolute" music for the concert hall as well (such as "Music For Orchestra", which was premiered by Leonard Slatkin and the Minnesota Orchestra in 1970)

Korngold set the orchestra up in the traditional old school Vienna style and got that sound. He wrote leit motifs.

Herrmann didn't get involved with leit motif work and set the orchestra up entirely differently. He would have been the first film composer to use modern techniques - for example the quadruple tracking of the solo violin (in 1941) in The Devil & Daniel Webster. Bringing instruments to the foreground that would not be possible (to hear) in a live performance with all the other noise going on, is another example.

Herrmann's music was suited to the films he did partly because those were the films he was offered. You get the same thing with actors. It makes no odds about what genre is most suitable for this composer or that - or what your favourite this or that is. You have to accept that Herrmann was the best at his trade and is the benchmark for everything else - including John Williams. 

Yes, about the specific films Herrmann did, the ones he was offered - that has always struck me.  Here is a film composer whose first film score is THE GREATEST FILM EVER MADE according to many movie critics and historians.  Citizen Kane.  And then, after polishing off that little gig, Benny went on to score, oh, let's see, a few little projects like all of Ray Harryhausen's classic fantasy films, all of Hitcthcock's greatest masterpieces, etc. etc. etc.

It is true he was a great composer, but he was also incredibly lucky to have been living at the exact moment when all those film projects were around and he could do them. 

One other thing I was thinking might be appropriate for this discussion - John Williams early TV scores.  The ones by "Johnny Williams" - like, Lost in Space.  They are very good, but it is clear that he was learning how to score.   Because he is a brilliant composer, his education was very useful to the TV networks.  However, compared to his later film scores they are very simple little ditties. 

This is in sharp distinction to the Herrmann and Goldsmith TV scores.  They are the works of absolute masters who used the budget limitations as a challenge for new ideas.  

Agree with that William. A favorite early Williams film score of mine is Midway simply for the fact that the JW we would come to know (his tuneful approach to film) is very much on display. Even so Goldsmith's Tora Tora Tora (to name a similar earlier score to the same film material) is indeed masterful with JG's trademark scintillating cues abounding right and left.

I remember a comment Jerry made at as pre-concert talk about him, John Williams and another composer (think it was either David Shire or David Raksin) working in offices that shared a corridor when they were all working in TV. He said it was a wonderful environment to work in because there was all this fantastic music coming from each of the rooms and the composers would always be 'wandering' down the corridor to listen to the latest ideas from each other - and then try to write something better!

M

Apart from those already mentioned, I remember - even as a boy - how impressed I was with David Rose's music. He was mainly given, let's say, not the most sophisticated scripts to score (Bonanza, Little House on the Prairie), basically wholesome, moralizing scripts, with some slapstick/comedic elements, and almost cartoon-depth characters and atmosphere. However, there are many moments where he chose to show how many layers of expression he was capable of, really lifting the action and providing extra dimensions to those characters and scripts, including some jaw-dropping musical moments. Same with Bruce Broughton and Dallas. Same with Mancini and Columbo, etc.

People smirk and condescend on such TV today, since Ally McBeal, Law and Order, Sex and the City, CSI, etc. are not fully patronizing and are much more relevant today (right...). If that is the case, why is the music which is supposed to heighten that "depth" (yeah...) and "sophistication" (sure...) so freaking base? Why oh why does TV music slurp so vehemently today (excepting Star Trek TV and a couple of other shows)? O.K., say that I am biased since I hated those shows with an immortal passion... In that case, I found House MD's first few seasons generally quite intelligent (you may disagree). At the same time, I was confounded by the inappropriateness of the title and dramatic musics (you may not disagree). If you can't score for - what is intended - a  highly brilliant and complex, suffering personality and your music sounds like powering up a studio's gear, get the F.A.Q. out of here and give me the job!

Also, from a previous point, I remember a lecturer at the university commenting about how relatively bad is the concert music of film composers, and musing "there is justice in this world". I have to agree and say that Herrmann's, William's, Morricone's, Goldsmith's, Barry's, etc. concert musics betray nothing of what those people are capable in front of celluloid. 

I always finds retrospectives about the 1960's interesting. And the sounds that defined the 60's etc.

One of the greatest exponents of defining the 60's in sound was NOT pop groups in general - but in fact John Barry.It's no good someone born in 1971 coming on TV and saying otherwise - because they were not F****** there!

@Errikos said:

People smirk and condescend on such TV today, since Ally McBeal, Law and Order, Sex and the City, CSI, etc. are not fully patronizing and are much more relevant today (right...). If that is the case, why is the music which is supposed to heighten that "depth" (yeah...) and "sophistication" (sure...) so freaking base? Why oh why does TV music slurp so vehemently today (excepting Star Trek TV and a couple of other shows)? O.K., say that I am biased since I hated those shows with an immortal passion... In that case, I found House MD's first few seasons generally quite intelligent (you may disagree). At the same time, I was confounded by the inappropriateness of the title and dramatic musics (you may not disagree). If you can't score for - what is intended - a  highly brilliant and complex, suffering personality and your music sounds like powering up a studio's gear, get the F.A.Q. out of here and give me the job!

As I said in my original post to William’s original post, is it bad composing or is it show producers who desire bad composing.  It seems to me that it’s the later because I’ve noticed that more and more TV show themes are not themes at all but sound designs; block chords, peppered with eerie synth arpeggios treated with a delay effect, BLOINKS! BLOOPS! And FASHIZZLES!  And, of course, everything is drowning in way too much reverb.  The show producers at some point have to listen to this stuff and make a decision, right?  “Absolutely brilliant! The way those FASHIZZLES and BLOOPS whirl around in your piece are so characteristic of our protagonist.   This is what we’ve been waiting for.”  What I fear the most is that this is some kind of cultural paradigm shift in television music.  Or what is more commonly referred to as a “generational thing.”  Maybe the kids nowadays just don’t dig good TV themes.

On the other hand, it could very well be bad composing and that’s what I hope it is.  I’ve also noticed a few TV shows are licensing top 40 pop songs to be their themes as well.  Didn’t used to be the other way around?  I remember some really good TV themes becoming Top 40 hits like, The Rockford Files, Greatest American Hero, Bosom Buddies, and, I think Cheers.  Perhaps there are some musically inclined show producers out there who have heard the BLOINKS and BLOOPS and have said to the so-called ‘arteest’ composer, “dude, I’m not paying for something that you just shat out of your DAW in five minutes.”

These things tent to be cyclical though.  I hope we go back to the basics like melody harmony and counterpoint soon because it sure is getting hard to do BLOINKS BLOOPS and FASHIZZLES with my mouth every time I play ‘Name That TV Theme’ with my friends.

 These are really interesting comments.  It makes you realize how little this area of music is ever dealt with. 

I don't think that composers today are worse than in the past.  But what has happened in TV is the lowest common denominator is in complete control.  In the TV days of Goldsmith and Herrmann and those other great composers,  the business was not as efficient. So they would hire someone who did an artistically good score just for the hell of it.  But today, the suits know that you don't need art for "product" and you can create "product" with exactly those bleeps and bloops almost automatically.   So the  total efficiency of the businessmen in charge is responsible for the drop in musical artistry, not the composers.