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  3. Time to Move Beyond Giga, No?

  • Time to Move Beyond Giga, No?

    P
    P
    I applaud what you are doing with the Vienna Library and wish you the best success (and hope that the library will be priced within my budget! [[;)]]

    But I want to talk about Gigasampler. I know Giga is probably the leader right now in software samplers, but let's be honest: the software is extremely buggy, doesn't work very well on XP, and is extremely limited. Its problems with Windows XP (while some have gotten it to work) still plague it now over a year after the NT/XP release came out. It also requires proprietary hardware to work properly. SB Audigy2, for example, won't work well with it even though the Audigy2 is a wonderful sound card.

    Isn't it time to have a new software sampler that will support the new advanced features of this library? While we're at it, let's have new composition software as well. Would it not be every composer's dream to be able to create their score in, say, Finale, and effortlessly be able to print it and play it perfectly using something like the Vienna library at the touch of a button?

    So my point is others need to come to the plate to finally finish this "revolution" to the real virtual orchestra. I just don't think Sonar and Gigastudio will cut it anymore.
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    Welcome Peter,

    while Paul, your "real" moderator here, is at the AES in LA and struggles with the consequences of the strikes on the Westcoast, let me jump into this - to give you a very vague answer:

    Please stay tuned ... ;-]

    All the best,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • P
    P
    Ok, I will Dietz. [:D] Thanks for the reply.
  • I
    I
    last edited
    last edited

    @peter0302 said:



    But I want to talk about Gigasampler. I know Giga is probably the leader right now in software samplers, but let's be honest: the software is extremely buggy, doesn't work very well on XP, and is extremely limited. Its problems with Windows XP (while some have gotten it to work) still plague it now over a year after the NT/XP release came out. It also requires proprietary hardware to work properly. SB Audigy2, for example, won't work well with it even though the Audigy2 is a wonderful sound card.


    Hi Peter0302

    Strange [*-)]: I do have three dedictaed Gigastudio machines. Two with W98 and one with XP. The XP one works best! The only disadvantage is that I need about the double amount of memory as in W98. What do you mean by limited? GigaStudio can do what all hardware sample can and a few things more. I know what I am talking about, I have 2 K2500 and an Akai S6000. One thing is thrue: Gigastudio is not easy to setup and get to work, but with the new version and XP I not even did experience this. I also did not notice that Gigastudio is more buggy than other software as Sibelius etc....The poeple of Nemesys did made a great invention, so I do not think that they deserve this kind of comments which are probably done without really knowing about things.

    Sorry Peter, but I just had to react to your hard critic, which seems absolutely not justified to me. (I am just a Giga user, no relation with Tascam.... [[;)]] )

    Igor
  • M
    M
    peter0302,
    you're thinking into the right direction! The Vienna Symphonic Library and its Performance Tools are a sampling breakthrough, but it's just the beginning of a new era in orchestral music production. Developing a library that comprehensive and authentic is the long-awaited fulfillment of a dream, but it's not the only vision we have in mind. Like our brochure says, "Rest assured that we have more innovative ideas in mind...", you can be a part of this exciting development right from the start being a VIP member.
    Thanks for submitting good ideas!

    Martin
    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • P
    P
    "Strange I do have three dedictaed Gigastudio machines. Two with W98 and one with XP. The XP one works best! The only disadvantage is that I need about the double amount of memory as in W98. "

    Read about the Conexant WaveStream error plaguing some WinXP users on Tascam's message boards. Also GS won't work with DirectX in Windows Xp, something that Tascam cannot justify technologically.


    "What do you mean by limited? GigaStudio can do what all hardware sample can and a few things more. I know what I am talking about, I have 2 K2500 and an Akai S6000."

    No doubt, but its development has been stagnant for many years. There are lots of new developments both in sound reproduction and in composition tools that Gigastudio could be made to work with better. For example, GS could support full 3D surround sound synthesis. It could support a better interface with the sequencer (something the performance tools seem to be addressing). It could also be a lot more stable and easier to set up.

    "One thing is thrue: Gigastudio is not easy to setup and get to work, but with the new version and XP I not even did experience this."

    Many, many people have. Just because you haven't doesn't mean it's not a problem.

    "The poeple of Nemesys did made a great invention, so I do not think that they deserve this kind of comments which are probably done without really knowing about things"

    I do know about things - don't assume because someone disagrees with you that they are ignorant. They made a good invention years ago. Today it's an out-of-date invention that seems to be headed nowhere and has pathetic customer support.
  • I
    I
    Peter,

    Sorry, I did not mean to say that you are an ignorant. But there is fact: We are many out there who are making some good music production with Gigastudio! And the Vienna Phiharmonic Library is also for GS! So at least for now, it is for sure not the worst piece of software around, as you seem to pretend.

    I am sure that there will be some new software which will be better than Gigastudio in the future, but I do not know who will make it. I use music software since 18 years and I know how things are evoluating, but its not your kind of comments which will make things better, but constructive feedback to the developpers can do it, so why you do not contact Tascam? I was also sometime pretty hard with them, but they always did answer me in a very kind and positive way.

    Igor
  • P
    P
    "I am sure that there will be some new software which will be better than Gigastudio in the future, but I do not know who will make it"

    Not until around 2018 - that's when the patent on Gigastudio expires. Until then, they have a monopoly on hard drive sample streaming. I, and many people, have posted our criticisms on their message boards, and usually what winds up happening is that Tascam people start arguing with us. They say they're creating version 3.0, yet won't tell us a single feature it will have. Maybe it'll be good, but I'm not betting on it. I just hope people come up with better stuff, and I hope Vienna drives it. Otherwise, at this rate, we'll be using Gigastudio 160 v.2.5 until 2018.
  • I
    I
    Peter,

    I did not know about this patent, but I am sure you must be right.

    Peter do you are a registered Giga User? You seem to know quite much about software, as you state yourself....What are the exact limitation of GigaStudio you expirement in your every days work, while producing music? I mean using Windows XP ist not really abolutely necessary on a dedicated GS machine, and if you are a professional you must be running GS on a dedicated machine. I do not understand the way you atack Tascam. I mean if they want the GS technology to die in favor of hardware, it would be real easy for them, and if not, then their interest is to make the best Gigastudio possible. The fact that they are not publishing features before new versions are on the market is business policy. Personally I think this is better than the opposite. Think about whats happen if the Vienna Library comes out and is not good....

    And think about Socrates" The only thing I know, is that I do not know much" [[;)]]
  • P
    P
    " I mean using Windows XP ist not really abolutely necessary on a dedicated GS machine, and if you are a professional you must be running GS on a dedicated machine"

    I disagree with that. I am foremost a software developer and I know that any piece of software that requires a dedicated machine (save an operating system) is a badly designed piece of software. I myself have attempted to create a hard drive sampler that would replace GS and was successful in getting the tech. to work with Windows XP and DirectX - totally hardware friendly. You could even run other apps while the sampler was running. But I can't actually go the extra mile or sell what I made because of the patent.

    And as for limitations, as I said, not only are there frequent crashes both in Windows 98 and XP, but GS hasn't had a single new feature since version 2 (unless you count modest XP support as a feature). That means that while sound technology is booming, such as 3D hardware, digital surround output, etc., Gigastudio doesn't support any of this. Another limitation is the small number of splits you can have. Each instrument can only have a maximum of 32 splits. I designed a sampler system that would have an unlimited number of splits, but again, can't make it because I might get sued. Another limitation is that we're still using an ADSR envelope which does not at all adequately capture the true nature of an instrument. Again, I designed a system that would use a 100% variable envelope. Another thing: COM/Automation support. With that, it would be possible for the user to write macros in GS that would creatively respond to any MIDI message using code as opposed to the limited split functionality. This would eliminate the need for something like the VSL performance tools. And the list goes on and on and on.

    So, those are the answers to your questions. I'll end with one other funny thing about Tascam, why I think they're a terrible company. People have been complaining about the Conexant WaveStream error for a long time now and Tascam is unable or unwilling to fix it. Finally, after arguing with the users over whether they could do anything about it, one of the reps actually told a user to let them borrow his computer so they could find the bug. While a couple people actually volunteered for this, most, including myself, were disgusted that a company would actually expect a user to ship them his computer so that they can find a bug in their own software. I told them they should replicate the hardware conditions and do it themselves - no reply to that one.

    This is a Mickey Mouse company who has no business owning the patent on hard drive sampling technology. They don't know how to handle this product, and as a result, it's in the stagnant buggy state it's in. Tascam's only response is yours; use a dedicated machine. I find that unacceptable.

    At any rate, there's really no point in arguing Tascam's merits any further. The VSL guys know my complaints about GS and are obviously considering what the best platform for VSL will be. I really hope it sparks something new and wonderful.
  • I
    I
    Peter,

    You do seam to really having a bad problem with Tascam..... [:D] I am only a modest musician-composer, so I can not argument with you. For me Gigastudio opend some possibilities I did not had before.

    If you invent the ultimate sampler let me know, I will for sure buy it! [H]
  • P
    P
    I really am glad when GS works for people.

    As for my sampler, I am limited because of the patent, but one thing I did consider doing was a non-realtime composition renderer that would take something like a Finale score and "render" it with high quality spatial effects using an unlimited number of instruments (so the 40+ GB of VSL samples would be no problem at all), and output it to 2 or 4 channels as desired, ready to be encoded into Dolby 5.1 or whatever format you want.

    The only trouble I'm having is finding a source for the complex 3D algorithms that the hardware cards use. So basically this would be a 3D Studio MAX except for music, all software rendered.
  • E
    E
    I am able to use Finale and Gigastudio on one computer without any major problems. I use Windows 2000, not XP. I have heard that XP is very buggy (difficult to work with). Windows 2k is much more stabe at the present time.

    As for Tascam, it would be nice if they would provide more information in general. I certainly agree that an update should have made by now. They fail to answer questions about the current version of the software which I find to be strange. One the developers on the yahoo group fianlly made an effort to give some information on the use of RAM.
  • W
    W
    I'd like to add to this discussion of Gigastudio problems that I agree completely with Peter, having had terrible problems with Gigastudio on a fast, otherwise perfectly functional XP system. Also, I find the differences between the clunky Windows-style interface and what I am used to - the Emulator IV hardware sampler running the Miraslav Vitous library - to be very annoying. If one could take a system as elegant and intuitive as the Emulator and crank it up ten or twenty times in raw power, one would have the best possible sampler to use with a huge library like this one. Because with that sampler for example, you can do anything and access anything immediately and directly, route any modulator to any destination, etc., and the operating system does not interfere, ever. Try saying that about any Windows program and you will hear long, hard laughter.

    Also, I find it very disturbing that the patent Peter talks about is so damning to other companies who could probably build a better system. I have been seriously considering switching to a Mac solely to use the Emagic sampler on the Vienna Symphonic Library, but I have absolutely no idea of whether it would be any improvement over the Gigastudio.
  • P
    P
    Yes, the patent on Gigastudio is quite a hinderance. I know an awful lot about patent law, and generally support patents as an incentive to inventors, but unfortunately sometimes a company acquires patent rights and then doesn't exercise them well.

    The Gigastudio patent covers any music sampler synthesizer that streams samples from the hard drive to the memory before the sample is actually played, and then continually streams the later parts of the sample afterwards, in order to have "Instant playback" or zero-latency streaming.

    Streaming off the hard drive would probably be impossible without this initial "caching".

    So any other sampler out there could likely not use hard disk streaming and still have zero latency without violating the patent.

    The best way to fight Tascam now, I think, is to complain to Conexant, the owner of the patent. They exclusively license the patent to Tascam, so if they found out how badly Tascam's been handling their patent, maybe they'd either step in or license it to someone else.
  • S
    S
    Hi Peter
    I'm not shure the patent is that strict - as I recall, the Halion use
    streaming with buffering as well - infact almost every piece
    of audiosoftware uses streaming with some sort of buffering.

    The point is the way Conexant does it - apparently the Halion uses
    more than twice the amount of memory pr. buffer to get latency that's
    even close to Giga. Giga is not perfect - far from it, but its the best
    available and certainly the most powerfull and IMHO currently the only
    one suitable for a library the size of the VSL.

    What I really would like to know is if the enigmatic remark from the
    moderator accounts for VSL collaborating with Tascam on the (admitely)
    looong awaited 3.0 version or they are doing something on their own.

    regards
    Bjarne
  • B
    B
    Hello Peter,

    You're actually a little misinformed about the Conexant relationship, although it is understandable because few people actually know the full story of those relationships.

    I agree that GigaStudio's development is sometimes frustratingly slow.

    However, you're very hard on some extremely good people. Do not equate TASCAM with the folks that actually do the work on GigaStudio. They are the same people who worked on it always, and they are fine people. Excellent people.

    I am first and foremost a musician...I derive 100% of my income from it. As such, I am willing to forgive less-than-ideal features in GigaStudio, because overall, there is no better tool for the purpose. I can make beautiful music with it, and it opened up career opportunities for me that I would not have had with my previous tools.

    I'm not saying you don't have a right to a negative opinion. But I will certainly go on record disagreeing with it. I am extremely thankful for GigaStudio. It has made a huge difference in my life. That is a lot to say for a $500 software program.

    Best regards,
    Bruce
  • I
    I
    Hi Peter, Bruce and Sapkiller,

    I did keep out from this discussion for some time, since Peter seems to be quite emotionally involved in this matter, but I do agree 100 % with Bruce and Sapkiller. For me as a 60 years old composer, Gigastudio did indeed change my life. While agreeing with some critics made to the software, I would like to remind my experience with Finale 1.0 [[:(]] [[:(]] and some others music programs in their early stage. Even if you, Peter, are the genius you do obviously consider yourself, which is very possible, you should refrain from writing the way you do. It does not help you and it irritates some readers

    Thanks

    Igor
  • P
    P
    To be personally offended when somebody criticizes a company borders on the insane. Unless of course you really are affiliated with them, which I now believe. If so, then I hope you forward all of my comments to them because maybe they'll listen to you - they certainly don't listen to their customers who complain on the Tascam boards.

    Anyway, almost all my complaints are with Tascam. I don't expect the handful of people who made the first Gigasampler to have a perfect product, but now that they're supported by a large comapny I expect results. Haven't seen any yet.

    Sorry, gentlemen, but I come from capitalist America where we expect a certain level of quality from our coroprations, and when they don't give that quality we are not only allowed but encouraged to voice our opinions against such comapnies. Therefore, if my opinion upsets you, then I suggest you stop reading my messages, because you are not going to stop me from voicing my opinion on this terrible company. And I encourage you to do the same, but don't you dare even suggest that I should stop being frank in my disgust with Tascam. I truly care not if you're irritated by it.
  • N
    N
    The Gigasampler was/is a great idea. But I prefer Mac to PC, and I certainly want to have an integrated working environment. Right now, e-magic's logic seems to me to provide that. So I'm waiting to see how the EXS24 VSL version compares to the Giga library.

    Nigel