i love bach's organ pieces ... for me bach is the mathematician under composers, the hard-rocker under classics, very nice done.
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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@cm said:
i love bach's organ pieces ... for me bach is the mathematician under composers, the hard-rocker under classics, very nice done.
christian
bach would have loved a dedicated user interface.
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@William said:
Perhaps a different interface would be helpful, but the existing one is simple to use first of all, has many common registers set up already and you can do absolutely any combination of any stops by using one sequenced track on multiple VE strips. So you could set up one track with the notes that you would actually be playing on a live organ, and then set up for example four instruments on the same channel with a total of 8 stops of your own choosing. Or any number of others. The reasons I suggest that are if the organ is in an orchestral context the registers that already exist are almost certainly sufficient and also, if you are doing an organ solo you would naturally be able to create separate tracks as the focus is entirely on the organ and it is almost instantaneous to do a new track with different stops.
I wonder - Guy did a Bach Toccata and Fugue - was the existing interface slow to use on that?
I am not really arguing against another interface, but it involves making a new setup for the one instrument. And that complicates the very elegant system that VSL has evolved. There are organ solo libraries that have a customized organ interface, but they have no other instruments.
This is exactly like that percussion thread. People are demanding that the interface be changed in order to make it more like older sampler systems that did not have all the instruments VSL has with its highly evolved and very well-written single system. I like the fact that I can learn how to use the VSL interface, and then apply that knowledge to every single instrument tht might ever be used in an orchestral context.
to do the toccata and fugue by bach or anything you like: it takes about exactly realtime. choose any combination of stops and play.
the question is definitely not: is the interface fast enough. fast enough for what? to play bach?
the question is: how quick and intuitive can you set the stops. did you ever do that? setting the stops (orchestrating the organ, if you like) is a very important part of artistic organ playing. if i just want to check two different 8" stops, this takes me 1 second on a real organ, but 1 minute with the current interface.
there´s no complication necessary. are you sad that vsl changed the standard interface used with boesendorfer to the new vienna imperial? well, i think you´ll get over it.
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William, your points are largely correct in a recording situation. However, whilst the current VSL interface is superb for live playing of many orchestral intstruments, I struggle to understand how it could be thought of as anywhere near acceptable for live playing of a large-scale organ. In fairness to VSL, I accept that the VSL interface performs very well when using it for what it was primarily designed for. However, as an organist trying to use it for live playing of an organ (simply for my enjoyment, by the way), I am constantly disappointed and frustrated by it.
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sorry for my ignorance beeing just a fan of organ sound and music ...
but wouldn't it be necessary for live playing to have 3 or even 4 manuals mapped to seperate MIDI ports and MIDI controllers that work as stops (in german: Zugriegel Controller) and are mapped to the respective functions within VI?
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
It would be very easy to set up VE so that you could use it the same as real organ. Even just using one manual. Provided that you can construct a sound using the patches provided, I don't see what the problem is. Please could someone spell out a single example where the VI interface doesn't work, in words even I can understand, and I might be able to help. [;)]
DG
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william, you probably edited your last post, but "this person" you mentioned is talking about the fact that vsl changed your sacred user interface drom bösendorfer imperial to vienna imperial.
DG, i mentioned long ago and more than just once that everything is possible with konzerthaus organ just the way it is right now. i get along with it, it works, and i am happy with the sound. i just would be even happier if i could set the stops more intuitively and faster. one relatively easy way could be to implement the option in vi to play all matrix cells parallel and to be able to "mute" single cells. this way one could load all stops for a manual (save that as a preset) and then "deactivate" (mute) the cells with the stops that are not desired. (add the possibility to assign midi controllers to muting cells - just the same way one assigns controllers to any other function in vi - and anybody who likes can use zugriegel-controllers or whatever).
i do not think such an option would disturb the philosophy of vi, and nobody who would not need this option would be urged to use it.
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@clemenshaas said:
DG, i mentioned long ago and more than just once that everything is possible with konzerthaus organ just the way it is right now. i get along with it, it works, and i am happy with the sound. i just would be even happier if i could set the stops more intuitively and faster. one relatively easy way could be to implement the option in vi to play all matrix cells parallel and to be able to "mute" single cells. this way one could load all stops for a manual (save that as a preset) and then "deactivate" (mute) the cells with the stops that are not desired. (add the possibility to assign midi controllers to muting cells - just the same way one assigns controllers to any other function in vi - and anybody who likes can use zugriegel-controllers or whatever).i do not think such an option would disturb the philosophy of vi, and nobody who would not need this option would be urged to use it.
The way to do all this is to spend some time setting up your patches and combination of patches with multiple versions. This way, not only could you pull out individual stops (by keyswitch) you could also pull out multiple stops by a single keyswitch, much as you do on a real organ. All you need to do is set up multiple versions of each patch across multiple instruments in one VE. This is how (with the Orchestral Instruments) I get velocity xFade on and off on a patch by patch basis, and never have to worry about the switch.
Obviously this could get very complicated, but once set up, it is all "under the hood". In fact, an even better way to do this would be to get a Lemur and then all you have to do is either select patches or multis from the interface. One touch. Can't get simpler than that. Of course you would have to spend some time setting it up, but it would be the nearest thing you could get to live playing.
DG
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you are absolutely right, DG, and the way i use konzerthaus organ right now is just about how you described above (using multiple instances of vi). i say it again: everything is possible. (lemur is a great gadget, but not a real bargain)
you are also right with this setup being kind of complicated, that´s why i would prefer to have all stops loaded into just one instance (per manual) of vi (as i described; a checkbox "make all matrix cells parallel cells" would be needed, plus enabling/disabling of individual cells via keyswitch or other controller data: this would be a no-cost-one-touch-solution).
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DG,
With respect...
I think that "few instances" would means one instance per organ Division not more.
One for Swell -manual I
One fro Great -manual II
One for Choir -manual III
One for Pedal
But if you need 6 stops for manual I and you have to manage 2 vi limited to 3 stops each...
It is really disturbing !
I know you will tel me to use Predefined Matrix...
They are well done and useful for existing music until Romantic time but lets try to manage
Messiean organ works with that... a tremendous work....
you will have to use many Multiple-instances for each manual and pedal to achieve what it is asked...
it is not the nature of Organ as Instrument.
Again VSL team did every thing possible to make a Violin manageable.
We are asking the same for their fabulous Pipe Organ...
It is really less complicated
Are we asking to much? I do not think so !
Sicerely
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@DG said:
Ah, no-cost. Well that's a different ball game.
Have you tried using a few instances of VE rather than multiple instances of VI?
DG
no-cost AND one-touch, and one instance.
don´t you think my suggestion would improve vi (for use of the organ, and not affecting other libraries at all)?
vsl wisely thought of a parallel cell, say for adding some staccato attack to other patches, although this could easily be done with an additional instance of vi, too. a very similar thing i suggest here, that´s all.
using ve would probably slightly improve or de-complicate my arrange window in logic, but unfortunately logic crashes instantely when i try to instanciate.
thanks for trying to help, DG, and i expressely do not talk to you when i wonder why some people use this forum as a debating club rather than a forum.
i am only trying to improve the vi interface to the best of all users. vi (and konzerthaus organ) is great, but still can be improved, and i think this is an important part of what this forum is for. other users of konzerthaus organ seem to share my wishes, and i can see no reason why they should be attacked and insulted for that, or for not knowing that there could be some workaround or the other.
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@clemenshaas said:
vsl changed your sacred user interface drom bösendorfer imperial to vienna imperialplease consider:
a) an organ is not a piano (i.e. there are more than 3 pedals beside the keyboard to manipulate sound)
b) vienna imperial has a dedicated streaming engine *)and some more additional functions, so creating a dedicated GUI was more or less necessary.
*) the VI engine would not have been capable seriously handling 100 velocities across 96 keys
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
@clemenshaas said:
vsl changed your sacred user interface drom bösendorfer imperial to vienna imperialplease consider:
a) an organ is not a piano (i.e. there are more than 3 pedals beside the keyboard to manipulate sound)
b) vienna imperial has a dedicated streaming engine *)and some more additional functions, so creating a dedicated GUI was more or less necessary.
*) the VI engine would not have been capable seriously handling 100 velocities across 96 keys
christian
i was always wondering how those guys from steinway managed to put all those pipes into my little grand...
joking aside, i did not intend to ask you to put the organ samples into the imperial interface.
what i meant is: different needs (instruments) may require different GUIs. so we speak with one voice in this point. (a rose is a rose is a rose, but an organ is not a piano, not a violin, not an oboe)
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i understood - it was just to have the point of *GUI design different from bösendorfer to Imperial* covered ...
of course to have a dedicated organ GUI would be very nice, but i fear this would also require a dedicated engine, in other words it wouldn't be possible to put just a new *skin* over the VI/VE engine ... (same goes with percussions IMO)
well, at least our developers know what to do 2015 in case until then they're bored to death ... ;-)
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.