Yeah..10points aint nuthing.

I also had a publisher for years, and they took 40%.

Our manager took 20%.

I dont think they brought anything usefull to the table at all.

They claim to work for you, but the reality is that , at least witt our publisher...they are too big and busy to follow thru on their intentions and pomises. So they just collect money and do the paperwork.

the good thing..is that you can get advances and possibly have a negative account and still get further payments and more money then if you wwere to manage everything yourself. But we all know how living on credit turns out in the end LOL.

id say dont take on a publisher unless you can afford to loose 40% of your income for the sake of conveniance...

PaulR is very right , its only about the money, and publishers and agents will only be interested in you if you can generate enuff of it to make it worth their time. And you might not get anything subtantial in return for your hard earned $$$

@PaulR said:

I can tell you, like I've been trying to tell you here for years, you forget all your musical dreams if you're looking to write music for films and tv.

Well, of course, here I can disagree with you, because it's simply not my experience.  

You just have to know what you're up against, and like any other business arrangement, get yourself leverage, and be clear what your real goals are.  The first thing I did when entering the business, was make sure I didn't have to be a whore.  Having to take any job just to pay bills was going to kill my love for music, and force me to work with tons of people in tons of ways I wouldn't want to.  So the first thing I did was submit pieces to the music library companies - 3M, Muzak, etc. - writing this godawful "hold music."  Except I could crank out 8 tunes a weekend, record them at my friend's house for a modest cost with a couple great players, and it was great exercise.  I had a 92% acceptance rate, and after a couple years of just loading up the libraries, to this day those tunes remain my staple ASCAP royalty base that I live on.

Once that desperate pressure is off, you can be more selective about what you do, and you take that into meetings with you.  Believe me, people can smell desperation, and they can tell when you're about the money - or when you have to be, by necessity.  At first, in Hollywood, people don't quite know what to do with you when you can't just be bought.  But with that security at your back, you have more leverage to make it about the work, and about what you want to do.  Of course, what you want to do is make the producer's film, or the director's film, the best film it can possibly be. And when you mean that, and when it's obviously not just a sell line because you're actually about the money, they tend to believe it's true.  And true, non-qualified passion is attractive to everyone.

Agents are about the money.  Hell, most people are about the money.  But the people you really want to work with, who care about the art, are out there, and they like people of the same flavor.  You make some business decisions, so you can make artistic decisions.  But they're aren't mutually exclusive.

Like most things, the wisdom lies in the balance.

_Mike

@mverta said:

But the people you really want to work with, who care about the art, are out there, and they like people of the same flavor.  You make some business decisions, so you can make artistic decisions. 

All right - I am editing this because it shouldn't be publicly posted.  This thread and the attitude of some people here really enrages me, because it is a combination of people who are naive, with people who know what they are talking about, and all of it about the very reason why the music industry is so disgusting to me.

@William said:

"Well, of course, here I can disagree with you, because it's simply not my experience." - mverta
 
What experience do you have?  That Star Trek demo?
 
This pisses me off.  You go around acting like you are such a hotshot professional composer, putting me and anyone who dares not to fawn all over you down, and now you say something so stupidly naive.  Guess what - THIS HAS BEEN MY ONLY EXPERIENCE  and it is why I don't like arrogant naive little jerks like you telling people how things are.   You can forget all about the entire nature of musc and art, if you want to be a professional film composer.  Stop trying to fool people here because you are full of it and make me sick.
 
This entire thread in fact is nauseating, because it reminds me of the venal, disgusting nature of the music business.   For your information mverta and all the bright-eyed little would-be hacks out there - I have a thousand times more respect for an idealistic amateur who sincerely creates a piece of music THAT WILL BE UTTERLY IGNORED by all of the goddamned high-powered agents you are so eager to kiss ass for.

You're going to have to do better than that, though.  

_Mike

@PaulR said:

I don't want to be your agent.

The agents only care about the money, Paul, but they don't care how or where or under what circumstances you get it.  So what I'm saying is, control how you get it, because you can't trust people like agents to find it for you, or protect what you do, or care about you at all.  I'm saying leverage yourself as best as possible on the artistic front, because the business aspect of it will never serve your creative endeavours at all.  But once you've got the gig, they'll take the money, no questions asked 😊

_Mike

What many people do not understand is that there are - right here - people who are the superior of many highly paid industry professionals and who are not making money BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT COMPROMISE.  And these very agents who are so arrogant in their power, look down upon them.  What they don't understand is that they would also be looking down upon some of the greatest artists of history if they could, because many of those were the same type - artists who got into whatever medium they do for idealistic reasons AND CONTINUED TO WORK FOR THOSE SAME REASONS.  They would not destroy everything they believe in for money. 

But you cannot have that attitude in Hollywood.  You must be willing to do that.   That has been my only experience. Create something out of belief, out of desire to make something beautiful or good, for its own sake, and it MEANS NOTHING to these people.  And they are in total control. 

All of this has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with anything I believe in. This "Professional"  world has nothing whatever to do with mine. So why should I post anything here? There is no reason.  This whole thing exists for money-making.   Nobody gives a shit about art.  What? Art?  Are you kidding? How can you be so naive!

 Actually, you're the one being not only naive, but self-righteous and elitist.  The world isn't perfect, and just because you can make money at doing what you love, and do it well doesn't mean it's corrupt and valueless.  If a million people's lives are enriched by your work, you can consider yourself lucky to have made that kind of contribution through your art.  If you did it and you're not especially talented, then your contribution will fade.  If you did it and you're especially talented, chances are it will endure, as some music has endured for centuries.  It has little to do with getting work, and little to do with paying bills.  Many of the greats were absolutely obsessed with money, and were as "commercial" then as composers are today.

You can make sweeping judgements about all us inferior types, and call me names or whatever, but so what, really?  I've made an extremely comfortable living for myself doing nothing but writing music that I love, and that people have felt was worth paying me for.  I hope to do more and bigger work, but who knows?  I hardly feel compelled to justify my life to you, or anyone, really.  But at least I do speak from personal experience, and consider myself fortunate to have been able to carve any kind of life for myself through writing music, let alone a rewarding and happy one.

_Mike

William no offense to you because despite your anger you seem to be a very down to earth idealist like myself and believe in art, but why do you have such enmity for someone like Mike Verta. First of all, you say he hasn't done anything but a star trek demo, if you would have looked him up you can see he's a professional IN the industry, he actually works in hollywood and has scored movies before so as far as anyone here is concerned that makes him far more qualified to speak on the matter than you. No offense of course I don't mean that in a nasty way but it's the truth, the point of the thread is to ask about agents and seeing as how Mike has dealt with agents before, and the creme de la creme at that (Gorfaine, the agent of EVERY major player in Hollywood from Yo Yo Ma, to James Horner and Hans Zimmer etc), that makes him very qualified to at the least SHARE HIS OPINION.

I understand your sentiment but I just don't see why you continually take your bitterness at what might possibly be your own failings out at genuinely good people like Verta who does nothing but help people on here and offers his opinions and any help that they ask for in terms of asking him his techniques and how he made it to the top etc. Have YOU offered anything the 'community' here? I know I haven't but that's why I am grateful to people like Verta that descend from their lofty perch on Mount Olympus (Mt. Hollywood) to share their experiences with us street urchins trying to make it in the BUSINESS. Yes keyword being, BUSINESS because that's the nature and topic of this thread, the BUSINESS side of things, perhaps next time I'll make a thread about the artistic side and then you can spread your wings in that thread as you seem to be an expert in that field :)

"You can make sweeping judgements about all us inferior types" - mverta

Inverta - I never labeled anyone an "inferior type" - that is obviously your lame and transparent attempt at trying for some comraderie-by-anti-intellectualism.  It won't work, because I am not an intellectual at all.  In fact, I am rather challenged by many things, especially Altiverb. And why certain people are such assholes.

requiem aeternum - you have no idea of what I have done in my work. Neither does that little twit Inverta.  He obviously is so full of himself that nobody else even exists.  Keep that in mind with your Hero-Worship.  It won't do you any good in the long run.  In fact, you should worship me instead.  Trust me - it will do you much more good.  And it makes far more sense for people to worship me - an angry God who demands complete purity and no compromises - than a pathetic mere-mortal sycophant to the demonic Agencies of Evil like Inverta.  He has not obtained any divine status, unlike myself, who has risen several Supernal Levels above you.  I no longer need to contact agencies.  I am myself a Supernal Agency, dealing only with my peers - The Gods and Demigods and of course, The Muses.  (They are very cute BTW.)  May you Rest in Peace Eternally, My Son.

Angelo - I think this thread is in serious need of your commentary!

PS William I just realized how aptly my new signature quote fits you....  ;-)

When people in this thread refer to "the industry", "the music business", "the professional world" etc does this mean "The Film Music Industry/World in Hollywood"?

Are people on this forum aware that orchestral music is being written outside "the film music world"?

The OP asked about representation for composers of film music, and named several film composers specifically.  This is a thread about film music and the film "industry/business."

_Mike

@mverta said:

 

The agents only care about the money, Paul, but they don't care how or where or under what circumstances you get it.  So what I'm saying is, control how you get it, because you can't trust people like agents to find it for you, or protect what you do, or care about you at all.  I'm saying leverage yourself as best as possible on the artistic front, because the business aspect of it will never serve your creative endeavours at all.  But once you've got the gig, they'll take the money, no questions asked 😊

 

_Mike

But even that, Paul, that the whole business is a big turd soup is only half true.  The studio system sucks, and yes it's a crap factory, mostly, and yes, the quality of the average filmscore has just plummeted, but for every two dimensional pointless rehash of a film, there's an independent director doing it right.  It's a pendulum; it swings.  There are young directors that I talk to that hate the same stuff  you and I do, and love the same things we do, and they're as up-and-coming and connected as the crop of crap slingers.  So you just keep an eye out for the people you want to work with, build relationships and let time take care of the rest.  The studio system has died and been reborn a couple of times over in the last 100+ years, and it's always the same.  So for me, it's worth riding out the game until the swing back, especially if I can find things to do in the meantime that I love.  And thankfully, not of that actually requires an agent.

_Mike

@mverta said:

The OP asked about representation for composers of film music, and named several film composers specifically.  This is a thread about film music and the film "industry/business."

_Mike

thanks for the clarification mike. I'm out of here. 

@PaulR said:

You have to work and get paid. You, as a writer of film music, regardless of how wonderful your score is going to be, cannot polish a turd. .

No, you can't, but that's part of why I say you have to try and leverage yourself.  If you "have to work and get paid," and you end up on a crappy film, they still put your name 12 feet across the screen on a single card in bold type.  Plus, you feel like you just wasted X weeks of your life.  Plus, because it was a crappy film, it was 10 times harder to write the score for.  I just went through this in January, when I did the score for a Sci-Fi Channel movie.  If you've seen those, you know how bad they are.  But this one was being produced by a friend of mine, who produced the series Farscape, and he's a great writer, plus a friend, plus my girlfriend ended up being in the movie, so I figured it would be the exception.

Wrong.

It was a nightmare; the director walked off the picture the second they wrapped, and the movie was just atrocious.  I had 5 weeks to write 80 minutes of "try and save this crapcan movie" alien music, with nobody clear on the drama.  The cue sheet read like, "01:05:00:09 - Marines arrive.  Marine music here.  01:05:04:15 - girls get scared.  Girls-are-scared-music here.  01:05:14:23 - Alien pops out.  Alien popping out music here."  It was from hell.  Plus, I didn't sleep, hated my life, and at the end, hated every note of music.  So even here, when I didn't take the gig for the money, and it seemed like everything would be cool about it, it was just horrific.  And my name's on it, tweleve feet across on a single card at the top.  I'm just glad amongst the godawful reviews, nobody's taken particular notice of the music at all.  Fine by me.  Just walk away and let's pretend it never happened, shall we?

So I'm saying that since it can always go south, for the "best" of reasons, it's usually better to give yourself the best odds you can first, by truly seeking out people who tell the kind of stories you like, and envision using the music the way you do, and like the music you do.  Hard to find, but totally worth it.  And if you can do other music gigs to ease the money pressure and allow you to be more selective, so much the better.  And yes, the Coen brothers either totally hit it or totally veer left, but however sparse the Carter Burwell score, I always hear something cool I wish I'd thought of.

_Mike