Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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  4. Vienna Ensemble vs Vienna Instrument
  • U
    U

    Hope this is not old news, but I've noticed this:

    Writing for string orchestra, one usually needs violin 1, violin 2, violas, celli and bass.

    In VE2, one needs to load 2 times the samples of the orchestral violins.

    (let's assume the use is for monophonic legato samples)

    As a VI however, It does not load the same samples 2 times.

    So by loading two VIs by the same name, only 1 VI will need to occupy the RAM.

    So in this last case, VI draws samples from the same place in RAM, which saves lots of RAM.

    This is a major draw back for VE to me, since my RAM is most limited.

    Or is there a workaround in VE?

    I hope I'm wrong somewhere, but this is how it looks.
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    @Emanuel said:

    Hope this is not old news, but I've noticed this:

    Writing for string orchestra, one usually needs violin 1, violin 2, violas, celli and bass.

    In VE2, one needs to load 2 times the samples of the orchestral violins.

    (let's assume the use is for monophonic legato samples)

    As a VI however, It does not load the same samples 2 times.

    So by loading two VIs by the same name, only 1 VI will need to occupy the RAM.

    So in this last case, VI draws samples from the same place in RAM, which saves lots of RAM.

    This is a major draw back for VE to me, since my RAM is most limited.

    Or is there a workaround in VE?

    I hope I'm wrong somewhere, but this is how it looks.

    The samples are not loaded twice in VE either, as long as you are using the plugin version, not multiple standalones.

    DG
  • M
    M

    I've been considering VE, my hesitation is that for me, in Logic 8, it feels like a step backwards from my current process.  Here's what I mean, and maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong:

    Currently, just using Vienna Instruments, I add a new "Software Instrument" track, set the input to Vienna, and pick an instrument.  For reverb, I simply route to a bus that has Altiverb on it.  Very simple.  So I can load up cellos on one track, basses on another, and route them to a bus called "bass strings" where I have the proper reverb.

    If I switch to VE (which is a multi-instrument like Kontakt 2), then I have to route each instrument from within VE out to an aux bus first, with one aux bus per instrument (so I can control volume levels individually.. no sense in routing horns and trumpets to the same aux bus, then I can't control their volumes individually), THEN I have to route those to a bus for my reverb (I do lump in instrument groups for reverb if they're close enough together).  This a real pain.  Not to mention you lose the ability to automate when using a multi-instrument (drawback in Logic, not VE's fault--in Logic you can see several MIDI tracks but adjusting the volume slider on one adjusts the volume for the whole multi-instrument).  All volume and panning must be done to the aux bus the instruments are routed to

    If someone could explain a decent setup in Logic 8 that's NOT a hassle to manage, I'm open to it.  I should be clear, this doesn't really have much to do with VE, it looks great.  This is mostly about how Logic 8 deals with multi-instruments, which, although it's been greatly improved since Logic 7 (no more messing with the Environment), it's still not ideal, IMO.

  • D
    D

    You are correct that Logic is the main problem for you. However do bear in mind that with VE you can actually pan the thing properly. This would be a very large incentive for me to use VE over VI.

    DG
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    @MDesigner said:

    If I switch to VE (which is a multi-instrument like Kontakt 2), then I have to route each instrument from within VE out to an aux bus first, with one aux bus per instrument (so I can control volume levels individually.. no sense in routing horns and trumpets to the same aux bus, then I can't control their volumes individually),
     

    Not really necessary. I have a template that has 16 instruments (midi instruments) sending on the 16 channels, wired up to the software instrument containing the VE. You can then control volume as usual. You can still have different buses coming back on different auxes if you want different reverbs or eq, but you don't have to.

    You have to "mess" with the environment for this, I just don't see why peole have a problem with it. It's one of Logic's powerful features.

    Dom 
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    @DG said:

    The samples are not loaded twice in VE either, as long as you are using the plugin version, not multiple standalones.
     

    Even the standalone (VE3 at least) doesn't load the samples twice, at least within the same VE instance.

  • D
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    @DG said:

    The samples are not loaded twice in VE either, as long as you are using the plugin version, not multiple standalones.
     

    Even the standalone (VE3 at least) doesn't load the samples twice, at least within the same VE instance.

    It is important to remember that VE3 is not a standalone. It is a networked plug....! This is why it shares memory. If you were using standalones, then it wouldn't.

    DG
  • D
    D

    Perhaps I'm not using the right terminology. On my slave I have both a VE3 "standalone" instance with the most used samples. It outputs through an RME ADAT card. Then, sometimes, I'm also running the VE3 service, for loading additional instruments. It outputs through gigabit ethernet. The two are totally independent.

    Dom 
  • M
    M
    I noticed that Vienna Instruments uses less CPU on my rig (Logic 8 + G5 + Tiger) than Vienna Ensemble. As for the power panning whatever used for it sounds artificial. "Placing" an instrument group in a hall requires interaction between the [b]off axis[/b] recorded direct signal (not the case with Vienna) and the reverb from [b]off center[/b] source. For the latter you need at least IRs for several locations on the stage in the same room working simultaneously.
  • M
    M

    I forgot to mention, I'm on a single Mac Pro quad-core, so having a network of machines with VE is a moot point for me.  Also, I don't use panning at all, I do stage placement via Altiverb.

    I think I may have just talked myself out of using VE. ;) I don't have any problems with the VI interface other than that silly "Show Window" button that comes up when I double click the Vienna Instruments AU on any given track.  I'd seriously pay money to get rid of that thing.  Why is it that no other AUs do that?  Is it some kind of wrapper, maybe?  Is Vienna on Mac just really a VST with some kind of AU wrapper around it, hence the extra step?

  • D
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    @MDesigner said:

    I forgot to mention, I'm on a single Mac Pro quad-core, so having a network of machines with VE is a moot point for me.  Also, I don't use panning at all, I do stage placement via Altiverb.

    I think I may have just talked myself out of using VE. 😉 I don't have any problems with the VI interface other than that silly "Show Window" button that comes up when I double click the Vienna Instruments AU on any given track.  I'd seriously pay money to get rid of that thing.  Why is it that no other AUs do that?  Is it some kind of wrapper, maybe?  Is Vienna on Mac just really a VST with some kind of AU wrapper around it, hence the extra step?

    I think that the window is caused because VI (and VE) uses its own memory space. When VI becomes 64bit, you'll thank VSL for this, because it will allow you to use all your RAM, even if your sequencer is still 32bit.

    DG
  • M
    M

    Ahh, I see.  Makes sense.

    I guess I might appreciate it down the road.  But at the moment, it feels like a small bump in my workflow.. mildly disturbing but not horrible. :)

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    @MDesigner said:

    Ahh, I see.  Makes sense.

    I guess I might appreciate it down the road.  But at the moment, it feels like a small bump in my workflow.. mildly disturbing but not horrible. 😊

    If you want to appreciate it now, then in real terms it means that you can use 3GB or so in your sequencer, 2.5Gb in VI and another 2.5 in VE. Without all this "behind the scenes" you would only be able to use the 3GB, without using standalones.

    DG
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC
    I use a Vienna Ensemble via IAC.
    Big advantage is that Logic does not produce an audio midi error sync when you edit the VE while Logic is playing

    Best

    Cyril
    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • C
    C

     Hi Guys

     I'm glad I found two people that are using VI and/or VE with Logic. I am running Logic Pro 8 on an Intel Mac and I have VSL special edition and also VE 2.0. I cannot for the life of me get Logic to put output through the VSL or VE. When I play my keyboard in Logic it picks up the VSL or VE patch, and the MIDI In meter reads correctly, but can't get the exising midi tracks to ouput through the VSL or VE. Any suggestions greatly appreciated. I have a TASCAM US-122 External Audio. Thanks.

    Carmen
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC
    Did you use the demo song in VSL download area as a template ? If you want to send your logic song to cb(dot)pub(at)numericable(dot)com I have a look at it Best Cyril
    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • C
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    @cgassi said:

    can't get the exising midi tracks to ouput through the VSL or VE
    Hi Carmen - did you try copying the existing MIDI data onto the VE/VI track? If you already did that and heard nothing, you could try changing the MIDI channel of the VI('s) inside VE.
  • C
    C

     Thanks for suggestions. I was finally able to get the existing MIDI tracks to address the VSL standalone. I'm sure there are advnatages to using Vienna Ensemble. Is it logical that with more instruments available in the mixer, the MIDI tracks in Logic should be able to point to the channels assigned to the instruments in Vienna Ensemble and use less CPU and memory?

    Carmen
  • C
    C

     Thanks again, I posted my results and a couple of more questions.

    Carmen
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC
    My experience with VSL is very new

    I use VE in standalone and I use IAC to send midi from Logic to the VE
    This solution avoids to have core audio overload messages when you look or edit the VE while Logic is playing
    I have made a VE for my Appassionata where I load ALL the articulations of the Appassionata
    From Logic I switch articulation via program changes

    I do the same for my Brass, Winds and Percussions but with QSLO Platinum and Kontakt 2
    Using K2 it was recommended to have Multi (= VE) instead of instruments (= VI) you get better performance and if you load twice the same instrument the samples are loaded only once (VSL can answer better on this one)

    Best

    Cyril
    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic