Hehe, only and 1/8th strudel then :D
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@stevesong said:
As some have pointed out, convincing an insurance company to issue a policy for an inexpensive USB dongle for many thousands of dollars because said dongle contains expensive software licences may not be easy. Listing potential sources for such insurance in various countries would be helpful.
I have never listed a dongle on my company insurance - I am however required to list anything of value. Thus, as pertained to in the EULA of my various sample libraries and plugins, not to mention my DAW software (which being Nuendo is also held on a Syncrosoft key) are all denoted as covered in the insurance. Therefore if my Syncrosoft or iLok dongles were stolen or damaged, the insurance company would replace those products that it held - the fact that it holds only the "licence" for a product is immaterial.
Likewise, anyone running a Windows OS on a PC bought from a shop or common OEM supplier would find the licence key to their OS on a sticker attached to the computer - you don't own the software, you are licenced to use it, just like a sample library. If someone then makes off with that computer, even if you have the original disc, the lack of that licence sticker and its denoted code means you need to replace it.... there's really very little material difference between this and a sample library, plugin or other dongled software.
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@stevesong said:
As some have pointed out, convincing an insurance company to issue a policy for an inexpensive USB dongle for many thousands of dollars because said dongle contains expensive software licences may not be easy. Listing potential sources for such insurance in various countries would be helpful.
I have never listed a dongle on my company insurance - I am however required to list anything of value. Thus, as pertained to in the EULA of my various sample libraries and plugins, not to mention my DAW software (which being Nuendo is also held on a Syncrosoft key) are all denoted as covered in the insurance. Therefore if my Syncrosoft or iLok dongles were stolen or damaged, the insurance company would replace those products that it held - the fact that it holds only the "licence" for a product is immaterial.
Mind if I ask who's your insurance company? Because this doesn't sound like the sort of thing that Allstate or even Loyd's Of London would cover. Or maybe I'm wrong.
Also, do you mind if I ask how much this insurance costs you? Does your insurance company have any competitors so that we could shop around?
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Not sure my company is going to help you much Jasen, as I'm in the UK.... I have been through several insurers in the last fifteen years, and not one has yet had any issue with it whatsoever. Perhaps it's a problem that's specific to the US market, but I'd find that unlikely.
Remember, you're not insuring the dongle, you're insuring the product licence held within.
Customer - "Hello Mr Insurer, I'd like to insure my copy of Nuendo for £1,500 and my VSL Libraries for £12,000 please"
Insurer - "Hello, that'll be £500"
Customer - "Thankyou"
Edited to add - Hiscox / Hencilla Canworth / Doodson / Palladium etc....
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@synthetic said:
iLok offers replacement insurance, but not Syncrosoft. I don't think my insurance plan covers software.
'ello old bean, fancy meeting you over here 😉
iLok's insurance only covers the software of participating companies - which is relatively few...
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In the event of any theft, an insurance company would require a certified police report before issuing any reimbursement. If insurance companies are willing to shell out x thousands of dollars on the basis of such police reports, why would VSL not take a police report as proof of theft?
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That's why you have car insurance - if someone steals your car, and you own the original sales invoice, get a police report, and then get all the CCTV footage of it being stolen, will Ford give you a new car....???
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@synthetic said:
iLok offers replacement insurance, but not Syncrosoft. I don't think my insurance plan covers software.I've broken a dongle before while moving a computer, so I'm also nervous. I'm considering adding an internal USB port to my PC and using a Zip tie to fasten the dongles inside.
what i noticed is a *zero downtime* option ... but i never took too much care about all this since we have a hard- and software insurance here ...
breaking a dongle is basically no problem, since as long we can identify the eLicenser, your licenses will be replaced for a little handling fee ...
in case a dongle stops functioning within the warranty period actually no handling fee applies.
if you're in troubles because in the middle of a project just email support - we have solutions and can help you out.
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
@stevesong said:
As some have pointed out, convincing an insurance company to issue a policy for an inexpensive USB dongle for many thousands of dollars because said dongle contains expensive software licences may not be easy. Listing potential sources for such insurance in various countries would be helpful.
I have never listed a dongle on my company insurance - I am however required to list anything of value. Thus, as pertained to in the EULA of my various sample libraries and plugins, not to mention my DAW software (which being Nuendo is also held on a Syncrosoft key) are all denoted as covered in the insurance. Therefore if my Syncrosoft or iLok dongles were stolen or damaged, the insurance company would replace those products that it held - the fact that it holds only the "licence" for a product is immaterial.
Likewise, anyone running a Windows OS on a PC bought from a shop or common OEM supplier would find the licence key to their OS on a sticker attached to the computer - you don't own the software, you are licenced to use it, just like a sample library. If someone then makes off with that computer, even if you have the original disc, the lack of that licence sticker and its denoted code means you need to replace it.... there's really very little material difference between this and a sample library, plugin or other dongled software.
This is not same. If you owned that machine, and wrote down the license key on the CD itself or somewhere else for safe keeping the fact if someone ran off with it or not doesn't claim you can't use it. You have proof of purchase and both the original disc and the license key. That gives you every right to use it on a replacement machine as long as you are not using it on more then one simultaneous machine. You could also report the CD key you have stolen, provide them that key and request another one, hence catching the person the next time they try to use your key and it flags microsoft during the activation/registration process. This may cost a small fee but is very doable. Yet again, you yourself aren't out that terrific or horrific of a loss. Not to mention we are talking about a couple hundred dollar software license. No where comparable to a possible $20,000 bill you could have in no time with these vienna packages.
On top of this, how often do you walk around with that big box in your pocket? How many times do you take it on the road? I highly doubt it is something that moves more then a few times a year (if at all) so that your other half can hit that untouched area with a vacuum cleaner once in a blue moon. It still doesn't level with the idea of a license code that even though is connected to your name and your hard earned money, if you lose that little blue dongle you're done for. It doesn't matter wether you wrote down your activation codes etc, recorded in blood (or your very own DNA) means nothing if you don't have the little blue dongle itself which is far more susceptible to loss, vandalism and or theft and damage. It is in fact the most fragile part of the entire system and yet has the greatest level of importance and significance attached to it. Also, the cost of the machine and its parts whether you insure it or not, will get slammed with depreciation so don't count on getting your money back on that one. part of it yes, all of your investment, don't bet on it.
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@RedLeicester said:
That's why you have car insurance - if someone steals your car, and you own the original sales invoice, get a police report, and then get all the CCTV footage of it being stolen, will Ford give you a new car....???
Another bad example. You pay for car insurance mostly for the idea of protecting yourself and others in the case of a collision or accidental death. It eliminates your liabilty for wrongful death of another person and from the liability of paying for their medical bills from you slamming into them from not paying attention. That's just the collision coverage. The remaining side being comprehensive coverage protects from vandelism and theft etc. Anything basically not related to an actual collision or accident while the car is running and operationally moving.
What your saying more equates to someone walking up to my car and stealing the smallest and most fragile component they can possibly find within hands reach such as a pretty beamer logo or a sexy lotus emblem on the hood. Should they get away with this does this place your car out of commision? Do you find yourself stranded and completely and utterly screwed because someone decided that your door handle would look good on their bedroom dresser top? No, you find yourself slightly inconvenienced and most probably upset at the idea. However, within a few short days you have a new emblem or handle and life goes on virtually unhindered.
The most crucial point here is that all emphasis and security of our libraries is placed on the very thing which is most unsecure, unstable and easily stolen or broken. There is nothing I can think of more fragile in the process then this little blue dongle and yet our lives (those of us who make a living with these things) depend on it. The risk versus reward here is quite lacking.
I am reminded by the fact that just the other day, I had to re-install my Kontakt players and my Sibelius Notation. During the original process I took detailed notes of every step of the setup process. When I re-installed Kontakt it went flawlessly. Then I installed the service center licensing software and it instantly took me to the activation window. It auto filled out my registration information and serial number etc (from me typing it in earlier). A great big "activate" button lit up and the moment I clicked it, it returned a "your product has been activated, thank you" message and I was on my way. I couldn't have asked for a more simple solution. All of this because I chose to archive my license files and CD registration keys etc to multiple locations (including on the internet in protected storage to protect from a complete house fire etc). Some companies go on a more honor system basis and others take the I will not lose at any cost. The way it is handled here I believe they go for the later of the two.
All the insurance talk of these libraries seems so subtle and necessary to some people here but I wonder how many of you have actually had to go to your insurance agent and say, "Hi, I need $20,000 to re-buy everything I already own because I lost, or someone stole my dongle". "So sir, you are saying you actually have all the products, all the CD/DVD's and all your samples and computers and your entire recording studio is in perfect condition but you lost (or had stolen from you) a dongle that's probably worth about 1 dollar?" "Is that correct sir?" "Yes mam it is". I would just love to hear one of those conversations. Because even if you find a legit insurance company who specifically deals with insuring odd things such as this, they are in it to make money. Not to pay you back. Unless you have unlimited funds this just seems to risky for me but to protect myself I can continue to pay someone monthly, quarterly or annual payments. Maybe this is ok and I am wrong in all of this. I just haven't heard anything convincing enough to make me believe this is the best way for us customers who support your very existance by buying your products.
Maestro2be
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@cm said:
counterquestion: what if your 48 channel digital mixer is lost in a break.in - would you then have to buy it again?
...well, we would have **bought** our mixer in the first place - we literally *cannot* buy the Vienna Instruments, only license them. If our dongle were lost or stolen, and we contacted VSL to get it replaced, I would have thought that they could simply deactivate the licenses on the previous key. The apparent fact that such a lovely, bloated system as Syncrosoft can't make a quick "phone home" - perhaps some sort of first-run on a new system - is a bit sad. I'm sure VSL is paying a fortune for licensing (let alone maintaining) this protection scheme... It wouldn't take much to store (for example) the hardware address of the machine on the key, along with the license, and phone home whenever the hardware address changes. If you have multiple machines, as long as the licenses are valid, they'll pass the phone home without issue. If a key gets broken, lost, or stolen, the licenses are deactivated, and the phone home fails. No dice for the "thief" trying to launch the VIs. Yeah, it means all machines in a studio need network access, but that can be managed pretty easily, and with VE 3 it's kind of essential anyway.
Sorry to cranky about this, but there's no reason this should be compared to ANY piece of hardware, from a mixing desk to a car. It's software. We don't even own it - we license it. To make comparisons to hardware is ignoring everything that computers and software make possible. Could you imagine a **mechanical** VSL? ...Well, yes... I suppose. It's called an orchestra. If Syncrosoft can't invalidate a license on a stolen key, in a way which is effective for BOTH the software company, AND the end user, then their service is sub-standard. Pathetic. Surely it's not only VSL that's paying for Syncrosoft's service, but the end-user as well, as the price of Syncrosoft is more than likely figured into the cost of the VIs.
(You may have noticed that the very mention of Syncrosoft makes my blood boil...)
J.
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@RedLeicester said:
That's why you have car insurance - if someone steals your car, and you own the original sales invoice, get a police report, and then get all the CCTV footage of it being stolen, will Ford give you a new car....???
This is, I think, apples and oranges comparison. A car is a large, complex physical object costing a great deal more to produce than a USB key.
The logical issue is that VSL will replace, at nominal charge, a damaged USB key after examining the damaged key but apparently will not accept a certified police report of the theft of a USB key. However an official police report is the criteria that an insurance company would use to justify reimbursement of an insured item that was stolen.
While it is true that a person could,fraudulently, claim that their USB key was lost or stolen, no one need accept such an unsupported claim - - certainly no insurance company would. Only if there is an official police report of a theft that supports the claim will an insurance company reimburse the claim.
In other words, an official police report is legally viewed as factual evidence that the claim is true in the same sense that examining a damaged object is evidence of it being damaged. VSL implicitly recognizes the fact that what is being replaced is a small, inexpensive, physical object by offering replacement of a damaged key for a nominal charge (a car company does not offer a replacement car for a nominal fee after you've smashed it up - - although they can examine it in detail), but apparently refuses to accept as factual evidence an official police investigation and report that declare the object to have been stolen. This does not quite make sense. To differentiate between these two circumstances would require believing in a possible conspiracy involving members of police anti-burglary units around the world and VSL users - - a conspiracy aimed at creating an illicit market in Vienna Keys. Of course anything is possible, but the statistical probability of such a conspiracy would, I think, be similar to that of being hit on the head by a meteorite. (It could happen!!)
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it is easy to make an application *phone home* - but AFAIK this is something we all don't like too much and would be simply useless for an audio workstation seperated from the internet ...
what can be done is to lock a key for further license transfers (license server denies access).
some time ago i brought into the discussion if a method would be thinkable to delete all licenses from *blacklisted* keys at next contact, but on one hand this method would be rarely efficient and on the other hand i'd rather feel more safe and secure to initiate any license transfer by myself than allowing some server to push or pull something to/from my private sphere.
so another time it appears to be easier ranting about what can't be done than to consider side effects for what could be done ...
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
so another time it appears to be easier ranting about what can't be done than to consider side effects for what could be done ...
There is much that can be done, and that's what I'm "ranting" about, if you want to call it that. There is a complex system in place already, but that system is geared only toward protecting the software company, with little or no regard for the end-user. To me, that seems absolutely wrong - speaking plainly, I find it insulting. Both the software company and the end-user are, ultimately, paying the salaries at Syncrosoft... In fact, since the software company wouldn't exist without the end-user, it's really the end-users who are paying all the salaries, all round the table. It follows that the needs of the end-user should figure highly in all this.
As far as "side-effects" go, I'd rather allow Syncrosoft to check my key occasionally, when connected to a new machine, than be out several thousand dollars for a lost or stolen key. And besides, there's no reason the process would have to be covert, in any way. If the hardware address stored in the key didn't match the connected hardware, it could launch the License Control Centre and go from there. Totally out in the open...
J.
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I think this issue is providing so much traffic because of the success of VSL. As the library expands the financial investment (ooh that contentious word again!) increases. So the total cost of the licences stored on a USB key becomes many times the average. By it's nature a USB key is both fragile and potentially easy to misplace during travels, or be acquired by someone else without permission. No one here appears to be arguing VSL's right to protect it's business model or intellectual property there just seem to be growing concerns about the possibility of loosing the licences then having no planned way to re-obtain them without further, potentially considerable expense. Julian
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Last time I traveled I just put the key in the luggage without even thinking what I was risking.
The next time I fly I will strap it to my body.
But, seriously, with the system as sophisticated as Synchrosoft, isn't there a way to disable/disconnect/terminate (you pick the word) the licenses on the lost or stollen key?
As far as the analogy with the car or the mixing board, the actual car or the board would have to be reproduced from scratch and it makes sense to reimburse the company for that. In case of licensing it's just reissuing the authorization numbers.
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@sasha said:
But, seriously, with the system as sophisticated as Synchrosoft, isn't there a way to disable/disconnect/terminate (you pick the word) the licenses on the lost or stollen key?also seriously: how should that happen except as described here (less seriously)
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
@sasha said:
also seriously: how should that happen except as described here (less seriously)
hehe... that's pretty creepy! 😉 They could extend that by making a 3G-based "self destruct" command! That'll teach those pirates. Arrrrr...
But I already mentioned a perfectly valid and simple way to prevent someone using a key with licenses that have been invalidated: keep the hardware address on the key, and launch the License Control Centre if that address disagrees with the connected hardware, requiring a quick "verification" of the user's licenses. Not a big deal, really. It doesn't need to be invasive in any way, since the key would be given the hardware address by the License Control Centre in the first place - nothing would happen without the user's knowledge.
