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  4. Composers who use samples for art
  • J
    J
    First I wanted to point something out, and to make a quick disclaimer: I'm sure that both Mike and Guy feel the "truth" of their statements above lies somewhere between what each of them is saying. These typed-out forum messages can become entrenched in support and opposition - "for" and "against" arguments - so quickly that one realizes only too late that one is arguing "for" something they only believe in under specific conditions, or "against" something they actually feel is perfectly legitimate...

    So, with that said, I think maybe an aspect of what William getting at - or perhaps just the way I've been thinking along a similar line - is the idea of the samples somehow slipping from their ties to "real" orchestral instruments. At least, that's what I would think of when considering the idea of music composed specifically **for** Vienna Instruments, not composed for acoustic instruments, then translated into Vienna Instruments. Of course, as Mike mentions, analog and/or digital synthesis has become the foundation for a great deal of music that is only "at home" in a mediated form, as there is no "live" alternative available - no mimesis to be carried out... No "real" to emulate, other than the reality of the influence of electrical impulses on a speaker cone.

    But the situation is more complicated for using Vienna Instruments as a sort of "native" medium. I think this is partly because it's very difficult to actually hear these "instruments" without reference to a model of the real. I mean, if we imagine the timbres we want for a synthesized piece, we may start with some example of another work we enjoyed, and try to figure out how the sound was produced - what synthesis technique was used - then make alterations to that sound, in order to make it our own. Or we might have some knowledge of the various synthesis techniques available, or maybe even specific plug-ins, and we may imagine new timbres that "should" be possible using those techniques, or plug-ins, and go about realizing them technically. These synths, and the sounds we've developed, then become our instruments, or our "palette". But with Vienna Instruments, at least for me, the reference point is always the "real" instrument. And that is the limitation. Of course, this is *my* limitation, but it's still a limitation, and it's difficult to get around.
    Over the past year and a half, or so, I wrote an album based on this sort of investigation. Some of the stuff is posted here:

    http://www.myspace.com/mrwheetuk

    The last track is a remix I did for a friend of mine, so it's a little bit of an outsider, sonically speaking.

    While I like what I came up with, and think it's quite a good album, it's not quite what I set out to do. The reason, basically, is that it's still much more thoroughly rooted in acoustic performance than I'd originally hoped it would be. I just kind of gravitated toward the idea of producing a sort of "virtual band", and really wrote the music for that band. In fact, I took it so far that even the synthesized parts are always written to be playable by one person, and are actually mixed using amp simulation! Crazy. But this is just something that kind of emerged during the process... And I think the reason it emerged in this way is that I was completely seduced by the realism of the Vienna Instruments, and could hardly resist producing a virtual band when working with them. Strange, but true.

    Anyway, I have in mind a new album, with quite a different approach. I think, this time around, I'm going to program a sort of VI host which implements the VIs under a kind of synthesis paradigm. The idea will be to use the VIs as the basic "waveforms", but to house them in a MIDI program that mixes them, automates program changes, detunes, and so on, in a way that mimics different types of synthesis.... Could be interesting, could be a bloody mess. Who knows... Considering how long the first album took, it also may never happen! ;-)

    But I also like William's idea of sort of "resurrecting" old orchestral pieces using the VIs. In fact, if I ever find the time, I'd like to program some of the orchestra pieces I wrote back in the 90's, when I was a wildly ambitious young autodidact, writing orchestral scores out by hand on, and packing them up in the closet once they were done!

    J.
  • G
    G
    A few sub topics have evolved from the main one but I think all inter-related, so this becomes somewhat confusing to the point what come first the egg or the chicken? In my case, I like to function backwards, that is if I take the example of Mike who will write down on a pad the full score before proceeding to a performance or mock up of it, and full admiration for working this way, but the way I prefer to work is write the piece in my head as I'm orchestrating it, on my computer with VSL, in my case. The big advantage is I can write a ton of music this way without having to go nuts trying to find the right circumstances for an orchestra to play it live. The way I figure is probably not more than 2%-5% of my total production will ever get a chance to be played by a real orchestra, and for many others I'm sure it's the same thing, so is it really worth it? I'd rather haver some fun on a daily basis and still with some pretty realistic sounds, and when I look at all of my orchestral production so far since I started with VSL I can say I have quite a bit to show for. If ever requested I can always score a piece on paper for a real orchestra, but to tell you the truth these libraries are getting more refined by the day that it's something I'm not too inclined on focusing myself on. There is something else to consider as well, there are many people out there who are very talented composers but will never have the same access some will get, for what ever reasons, to writing for a real orchestra. Virtual music composing leaves most composer on a more equal basis to showcase themselves. As far as internalizing the music before hearing it with instruments, yes it's important but not THAT important. I mean didn't Stravinsky write on the piano? I'm sure he discovered plenty of cool sounds just by trying them out, need I say the famous "Rite of Spring" passage: E flat 7 over E chord,also a perfect hand fit... I sometimes do similar things with VSL and it's not unusual that people will say: "Guy, some of your orchestration is very original, I never would have thought of that!" I think there is so much we can internalize, often it will be an amalgam of the sounds, timbres, chords we are already familiar with, that's not to say we can't create some amazing things. I don't know this for a fact but I'm sure Ravel must of constantly asked musicians to try unusual things on their instruments to hear how they sounded. Ultimately what REALLY counts is your decision on how to dose all these sounds, no matter how they originated. So back to the question, for some it can be a new art of writing with virtual sounds and others not, it's probably a personal thing, really depends on your approach.
  • M
    M

    But Guy, again, does having the ability to hear it in your house without needing a live orchestra make it an entirely new art form?!  I still don't see the connection.  Sure, the experimentation is nice, and the convenience is nice, but they sound like conveniences to me, like options, but don't represent anything entirely new.  Yes, there are composers who will never get the chance to hear their music live, but I don't see writing it on a computer makes it something entirely different or new...  it just gives them a chance to hear their orchestral music realized more easily.  People can make home movies on videocameras without needing a film camera, dolly track, grip and shooting permits; does that make the movies they shoot an entirely new art form?  

    _Mike

  • G
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    I see your point Mike, but I was more debating whether it changes the way you write music doing it the "non traditional" way, that is being influence by the type of libraries, samples, articulations etc you are dealing with, and you were saying it does not change anything for you in your writing since you internalize your music before any further steps, right? I personally will not write the same way for, say VSL as I would for a real orchestra, so this is the point and where the art factor is new. But ok the overall "ART" is still sounds we express and that does not change, but all I'm saying is writing with virtual sounds is an art of its own meaning it involves a lot of different approaches and specialization to make music, and I think when something reaches a high degree of refinement there is a new art form that is born, a little different than the example of handing anyone a video camera and tell him to make a home movie, will that be art? Absolutely not, or likely not. I think knowing your libraries is a totally different thing than knowing your orchestra, so somewhere you must admit Mike that there is an art form there, especially when one is considering all types of genres, string quartets, symphonic works, ballets, action, dreamy string sections, solo works etc. So again, it's to what degree this will reach that makes an art of its own, at least to me.
  • M
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    Wow... I mean... I guess technically you could call being really good at choosing which samples you use a sort of "art?"  Even if I grant that, though, do you really think your point here is in line with William's original definition?  Again, I'd be much more inclined to place electronic music realization in its own art form category when it's comprised of things that are unique to the medium - impossible tunings/ranges, processing, or combined sounds not possible in reality.  That sounds new, to me.  

    The title of the thread is Composers Who Use Samples for Art.  I won't argue that a symphony written with the help of samples is every bit the art writing it by hand would be - of course it is, it's just a different tool being used to realize it.  I argued from the beginning that using such samples just wasn't an entirely "new form of art," rather a different way of getting to the same place.  While I can see semantical points like, "choosing good samples is an art form unto itself," I still further feel that if you want to place something in the category of new, it has to be precisely something not possible before.  Realizing orchestral music was possible before samples.  Difficult for a lot of people for logistical reasons, but that doesn't mean they've created an entirely new art form by buying a Gigastudio.  Now if they take those samples and create sounds and music which are not possible to replicate traditionally, NOW you're talking about a new art form.  That's my take, anyway.

    _Mike

  • J
    J
    Well, elaborating a little on my point about the context of what the composer is hearing, try the following thought experiment.

    Imagine a composer, young or otherwise, who for whatever reason has no "live" context for the *sounds* of Vienna Instruments. This person literally hears them as a bunch of "presets" on a VST synthesizer. They drag these presets onto matrices, and build some patches, based only on how they imagine these sounds layering together. Then they start to compose music with the saved presets. The music may or may not be unique and interesting, and it may or may not be playable by human musicians, but it would essentially be a form of computer music, at least from the perspective of the composer. In point of fact, it may be extremely difficult to realize live, even if the performance itself is not particularly difficult, and since the VSL samples are confined to proper playing registers, there shouldn't be anything literally impossible, given adequate instrumental forces. However, even the slightest inaccuracy in the **balance** of instruments, the rate or depth of vibrato, and so on, would suddenly fail to "replicate" the "original" piece, which only exists, in its true form, in the Vienna Instrument-based version. The composer would recognize the "live" version as a "fake" in an instant...

    The point is simply that, in such a case, the original IS the VI version, and any "live" performance is the replica. Alarm Will Sound's album of Aphex Twin tracks is a good example. Further, given the technical impossibility of replicating every subtle nuance of a VI version live, the idea must at least be entertained that these are two completely different forms, in the very same way that a piece by Pierre Henry is totally different from one by Aaron Copland.

    I know... I'm pushing it... But you get the idea. And actually, if the fate of the world's orchestras continues along its bleak path, there may very well be generations of composers to come who *only* understand "orchestral sounds" as samples. These composers will hear 'Violins tutti C4' from 2 different libraries as distinctly unique timbres, just as they would two different string pads from different VST synths, or the different general timbral characters of Roland and Korg oscillators...

    cheers,

    J.
  • J
    J
    ...just to clarify. I realize the Alarm Will Sound album of Aphex Twin tracks is a different deal, because the Aphex Twin stuff isn't intended to *sound* like an acoustic ensemble... but you get the idea.

    Also, I just wanted to connect the above example to my original point: it is our own limitation that we cannot hear the Vienna Instruments without filtering them through the image of the real. Which is why I'm playing around with the idea of an interface which hides the VI form me, and allows me to play with timbres in a much more abstract way.

    sorry for blabbering... I'm done for now!
  • W
    W

    The analogue of video/filmmaking applied to sampling/live music is very appropriate.  Because, in answer to Mike's question is a homemade video different from a movie - YES!

    It is hugely different, as anyone who has ever tried to make a Hollywood-style movie, with all of the constraints of commercial filmmaking, knows all too well.  In fact, the entire reason that movies are in general so underdeveloped as an art form - compared to literature for example - is that they cannot be done the way that an individual in his digital video studio can do a motion picture, free of the compromises that are inherent in the medium of cinema done on photographic film which DEMANDS that the artist become a "showman" and a businessman and an audience pleaser at the same time he is trying to do cinematic art (if he even thinks of it, which is rare).  So this one practical difference creates an enormous effect and a completely separate art form.  The only way for an experimental/avant garde/artistic filmmaker to work in the past was in 16mm or 8mm, and these have huge limitations compared to 35mm film (involving not only the film stock size and resolution, but the use of optical printing, laboratory expenses, etc. etc.).  So digital video, especially HD, which is comparable to 35mm in detail and manipulative ability with an NLE system, is a completely new art form that allows an individual to realize filmic concepts that have never been possible to do before..

    By the same token, the simple pracitcal differences in using samples, as opposed to live orchestral music, create an entirely new artform, because a composer can express immediately - with the fluency of a painter's oils and brush -  musical concepts in actual sounding timbres that have the range of expression of the orchestra (or nearly so).  This changes immensely what is attempted, what is even thought about as a possible composition.  Consider the uniformity of most live-player music - it is always the same ensembles, and woe to the composer who tries to write for something unusual.  Or too big, or too little, or too long, or too short. Or too hard.  Or too easy.   It is not only instrumentation, it is orchestration, it is form (such as those huge symphonies Dave Tuba King is realizing and can hardly be attempted let alone well-done by live orchestras), it is contrapuntal structure, perhaps even harmonies and time signatures that are not possible with live musicians.   So these freedoms allowed by sampling, which in themselves might seem mere practicalities, taken together, do indeed create an entirely new medium of artistic expression. 
  • W
    W

    That is an interesting example JBM, about the composer who had never heard live orchestra using highly detailed, close-to-live samples like VSL.  In the worst situation. it would result in bad abuse of sounds that if heard live would be written for much better - such as one does really hear when a bad film composer (as opposed to the practice of good ones) writes block chords and smears them all over large ensembles that would normally be playing different individual lines.  However, in the best situation it might result in a completely new kind of music that was free of "baggage" that centuries of musical tradition have created. I feel that some of Ligetti's more radical orchestral pieces are like this, as if he was writing for samples before they existed because of his use of pure timbral combinations of single notes played by different instruments - something that samples can do perfectly and instantly (as opposed to all the difficulties in switching articulations within complicated lines, etc.).
  • D
    D
    William Your original and last statement of your posting, states something like." I feel isolated ". That appears to be the case with me also. I have chosen to use VSL for personal Compositions only. Or Classical tradition to be exact. And not go for the money in scoring or orchestrating Songs etc. Thus proves to be in rout of the lonely maytag repair man in perponderance. I would have never guessed that, at the early stages of Sampling. As presently I do agree with everything and everyone and their deep and analytical understanding of their work and habitual daily use. I just can confess on my angle of using these samples. And should very well mention that there are no one way of doing something but as these technological breakthrough continue to add up, so do the ways and means of use, and the many ways of creating. I myself have chosen to create by using the piano as the primary instrument as well as accumulating piano pieces all along which in return will give me the material to play live as well as orchestrate. Thus capturing two birds in one hand. And maintaining the primarial musical structural or theoretical picture in mind as well as in the ear. Or hearing. As far as the realistical sounds of the samples, there are many ways to engineer and recreate the indigenous tonal qualities. I confess, I did not have the time to experiment and iconically emulate the authenticity of the original. But Its not that difficult. for example something as simple as using mono tracks can create the original thin airy sounding stringed instruments. Or the use of a preamped plugins. Which are rare to say the least. Most ordinary people also get used to what they are hearing immediately and can't tell the difference. Beethoven broke the mole of the original sound anyway. I've always said; will anyone question the tonal quality in comparison to the realistic one if the Composition is of a Beethoven stature ? Also from another perspective, Occasionally One does hear some very nice orchestrations. Which just by hunch and being around from the last era of non samples. You hear perfect and powerful arrangements that just didn't exist from the last era without samples. The English have made good use of these samples, as well as the Italians. You can just hear the arranger auditioning samples to create the vast and powerful orchestrations of today. For Ex; The remix and arrangements of the song by three dog night. "Out in the Country". As well as Andre Bocelli's Orchestrative arrangements, Or Sara Brightman.. ect.. I may be wrong about my hunch also, But its something new from this era that i'm willing to bet. I've also found out that no matter what instrument you think will work. It almost will never as one auditions the different options. Tonal color is surprising. And the use of Sampling is of a luxury that one didn't have before. And I also still maintain that Composition is king. The process is a lengthy one. And there are no ways around it. Yes Mozart, Shubert, Shuman, Mendelson ect.. wrote from their head to Orchestra staffs. They all also paid a price for it. God gives and God takes away. The process is lengthy and absolute, despite all and everything that we will ever invent or improve. Great Art is Real ! Note: As for the person that bashed my brand new white car door the last time I logged in for a discussion. please, if you must bash another door, make it the right this time, so they'll match. Thank you. I'll leave the light on for you.
  • P
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    I hadn't seen Werner Hertzog on a sort of documentary since about 1982. The BBC made one in conjunction with his then, new film, Fitzcaraldo.

    The other evening, 26 years later, Werner Hertzog appears again. A very true film maker and an artist I believe. And a great sense of humour - very funny guy, especially when being anecdotal about film making and Klaus Kinski - bearing in mind German humour is fairly deadpan and an acquired taste :)))

    Werner believes that anyone who wants to make films should go out and get a camera and there's no excuses.

    RK - NEVER buy a white car.
  • D
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    Paul I've tried the other colors. They Got me arrested among other incidents that we will keep quiet about. ! clearly its not the Color. Thats why I mentioned white. Its the Music. People find it hard to accept. We still live in this tribal society of big over small. The little guy syndrome. Thats me. On the other side of the Coin. Have had the pope John Paul stick up for me. President Nixon used to say I look thiner than piss on Rock. ( During my rock days in the 70's ) Elton john, Rod Stewart, Franky Valley, Kenny Rogers among a few who have written songs about me. It goes on and on. But non of these make a hill of beans if you're the little guy ! Everyone Knows why we have twelve keys on the piano as well as 12 hours on a watch. But no one wants to volunteer and explain ! ...... I'm gonna have fun at work today. If anyone is interested. I cut grass for Exercise. It makes you play piano very well. You kids should try it. If an old man can do it, So can you ! Feeeeels Great.
  • W
    W

    "the use of Sampling is of a luxury that one didn't have before. And I also still maintain that Composition is king. The process is a lengthy one. And there are no ways around it."  - rk

    This is true, and especially the point about who is going to talk about little flaws in realism if you create something as good as Beethoven.  And that is what has become possible - in sound as well as written form - with samples.  I often think about how an oil painter can go into his studio, sit down and paint the greatest painting in the history of world art - that is, if he is artistically good enough.  But technically, he has everything he needs to do it with the tools right in front of him.  That is the basic thing which is happening with a sufficiently powerful digital orchestra. BTW, RK (Robert Kaye) has a CD with a very impressive string quintet out, using the VSL solo string samples and piano.

    I saw a Herzog documentary - is this the one? - in which he discussed Klauss Kinski's early career, during which Kinski traveled across Germany doing a live stage show that was designed to enrage the audience and cause fights.  I admire that tremendously. Also, his later acting which is definitive of the word "maniacal."  He was in a film set in South America, Cobra Verde, playing a maniac as usual, in which real Indians were cast as the recruits of his army, and who in reality wanted to kill him during shooting because of his charming practice of using a real sword during the fight scenes.  As an actor he was like what I was thinking this morning about Schubert as opposed to Schumann:  Schumann was an artist, but Schubert was a force of nature.
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    @vibrato said:

    .... and I work in India. We dont really have orchestras to work with.

    http://www.resolutionmag.com/pdfs/FACILI~1/RAMOJI.PDF

    http://www.resolutionmag.com/pdfs/FACILI~1/yashraj.pdf

    .
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    @William said:

    I saw a Herzog documentary - is this the one? - in which he discussed Klauss Kinski's early career, during which Kinski traveled across Germany doing a live stage show that was designed to enrage the audience and cause fights.  I admire that tremendously. Also, his later acting which is definitive of the word "maniacal."  He was in a film set in South America, Cobra Verde, playing a maniac as usual, in which real Indians were cast as the recruits of his army, and who in reality wanted to kill him during shooting because of his charming practice of using a real sword during the fight scenes.  As an actor he was like what I was thinking this morning about Schubert as opposed to Schumann:  Schumann was an artist, but Schubert was a force of nature.



    That was part of it Bill.

    It involved a story about how Werner supposedly directed Kinski from behind the camera whilst holding a gun on him, although this may have been exaggerated - but he did threaten to shoot him I believe if he walked off the set on one occasion and Kinski started shouting and going crazy.

    That's what I call being a Director.
  • W
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    That's interesting to hear about the situation of music recording there, Tanuj. 

    "actually, if the fate of the world's orchestras continues along its bleak path, there may very well be generations of composers to come who *only* understand "orchestral sounds" as samples." - jbm

    That is true, except maybe for the effect of film music.  In that many people today have never once consciously listened to a live orchestra, but they cannot help being exposed to film music in at least big productions, which still relies upon the sounds - even the traditional "classical" playing styles - of the orchestra  (because of the basically Post Romantic-Early Modern styles that film music tends to lapse into).  So the actual acoustic basis of live musical practices continues to exert an influence even in the least consciously aware listener.

    I also think about the future of orchestral music, though I tend to think the people who are running around these days writing books about the "death of classical music" are exaggerating.  It has never been a big money machine for its practitioners, except for a few soloists, conductors and opera companies.  But the "purity" of VSL sampling philosophy is an interesting development in this regard, because what they are doing by insisting on authentically capturing EXACTLY what live players do - with as little distortion as possible - focuses the attention in two directions: their own work in samples, AND  the original live techniques of instrumental performance.
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    @Another User said:

    Angelo - I am afraid that your internet Googling is not the reality of things here. 

    If I ever decide to restart formal music education, and go on to do a PhD in Music, I am definitely going to take the following approach, based on many previous threads here:

    1) Work out what the title of my thesis is

    2) Post the exact opposite of that title as an opinion on this forum

    3) Wait for Angelo to post a bunch of references explaining why I am wrong, and a bit of a moron

    4) That's my bibliography

    Should cut a year off the PhD.
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    @nicks@aubergine.co.uk said:

    If I ever decide to restart formal music education, and go on to do a PhD in Music, I am definitely going to take the following approach, based on many previous threads here:

     

    1) Work out what the title of my thesis is

    2) Post the exact opposite of that title as an opinion on this forum

    3) Wait for Angelo to post a bunch of references explaining why I am wrong, and a bit of a moron

    4) That's my bibliography

     

    Should cut a year off the PhD.



    And...

    5) Make sure you carry a gun in case you run into Angelo - so you can either
    6) Shoot him or
    7) Shoot yourself
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    That's what happens to professors. After years of being forced to teach Music through darwin's Galapagos or Giligans Islands. Ben Stein made a Movie Called Expelled. Recently depicting the side effect. How Ironic. Or Angelic !
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    String quartet+ CB was not able to be perform this very simple piece:

    http://www.synestesia.fi/2007/11/rain.mp3

    generated from this picture in 5 seconds.:

    http://www.synestesia.fi/2007/11/sade.jpg

    It is also interesting, that professional composers demand that music generated from pictures and performed by software instruments should emulate the breath lengts of genuine fluitists, oboists, etc.