@cm said:

in a certain way loosing the discounts for the older sample libraries was an indirect consequence of many users' demand for discounts from the Special Edition to the big collections ... more or less the upgrade paths have only shiftet their levels ...

christian

I just read this news for the first time, and my heart sank. When you not only compose for a living, but run a studio - with employees, health insurance and all sorts of other overhead - you have to prioritize expenditures. I've dipped my toe in the VI water with Appassionata strings, and applaud VSL for their groundbreaking work. I've looked forward to upgrading my Pro Edition Symphonic Cube to the VI collection for some time. But other spending priorities have always interceded. (It's not just the cost of the library. I've felt that I couldn't get best use of the upgrade until new Mac Pros are part of the equation.)

Now, (through no fault of VSL) we're in a position in which we must move and build a new studio by fall. As part of that transition, I'd hoped to finally be able to begin enjoying the full Vienna Instruments experience. But we can't do it by July 15th - our financing won't be in place by then. And if I have to pay full price...as if I'd never spent a dime on a VSL product...when I was promised an upgrade path, only to have a 90 day cutoff arbitrarily imposed - I don't know that I'll ever make the upgrade at all. The extra cost of VSL will equal TWO new Mac Pros! (I not only own Appassionata and Pro Edition Cube, but almost every Horizon Series product released.)

I can understand the need to make a bottom line business decision - I own a business myself. But I feel like Herb is really throwing us a short rope here. Very, very, very disappointing. It's, "Come up with over five grand in under 3 months, or miss the boat". Completely out of the blue...and unforgivingly disappointing.

Fred Story

Whatever the short-term "bottom-line" situation may be for VSL, alienating a significant number of users with what seems, to many, like a breach of promise  - - including some who are personally unaffected by it - - with this decision may not, I believe, make long-term business sense. Good will between a company and its customers is, after all, a highly significant business asset, one especially important to a small company most of whose products are never likely to be huge mass market items. 

It seems possible that this decision was rooted in the view that most First and Pro Edition customers who were likely to upgrade  to the Vienna Instruments had already done so, while the newer market created by the Special Edition needed an incentive to purchase parts or all of the rest of the Vienna Instruments libraries. Perhaps it seemed financially necessary to VSL to issue an ultimatum to those - - mainly professional musicians - - who had purchased but have not yet upgraded from the First and Pro Editions - - if they were going to be able to afford to offer an upgrade path to users of the First Edition (a market that is likely much larger than that for the First and Pro Editions - - and is, most probably, composed of a mix of musical professionals, students and amateurs.) The question then is: Is this new, larger, potential audience for VSL products really going to be so reliable a part of the customer base that the  possible alienation and loss of other (mainly professional) customers - - who made a significant investment in VSL products earlier on - - is compensated for? Should the folks at VSl not elect to reconsider this recent decision, time will tell of its wisdom or lack thereof. 

@DG said:

For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable licence, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment.

Secondly, even if there is no upgrade, your samples still work, they sound exactly the same, and you yourself admit that they stand up to any other library, so you have lost nothing.

Thirdly, VI is over 2 years old. In technology terms this is hardly new. You can't expect upgrades to last for ever.

Now, you may have a point in saying that VSL is not honouring the VIP program that they started, however that is also not strictly speaking true. They are honouring it, but are just giving you a time limit in which to take it up.

DG

I strongly disagree with most of this. The VSL was considered an investment, because their promotional materials said that no customer would ever pay twice to use the same samples. We all felt safe in the knowledge that we maintained our position on their 'ladder' even when our purchasing was at a slower rate. Now it turns out that, despite once being at the top of the ladder, I am now right back at the beginning, simply for having taken too long.

Yes the samples still work, but that's hardly the point. I've been struggling for years to buy into VSL. I had to go into debt to get the original libraries when they were on offer for students. Then I slowly started building a system around them, whilst also paying back the debt. With the advent of the VIs I had to decide to ditch Gigastudio, because FXteleport amd Gigateleport don't work on one network. So I rebuilt my system, in the belief that I would one day be able to buy all the VIs - I had no worries because of the Vienna promise that the upgrade path was always going to be there. Now I either have to go back to Giga, ditching the few VIs I've managed to buy, or be stuck without using most of the Vienna stuff that I've owned once. Eventually the performance tools will become incompatible with a version of Windows, so my Pro Library will, in fact, shortly become obsolete.

I agree that you can't expect upgrades to last for ever, but strictly speaking this is not an upgrade. The samples in the VIs are exactly the same as those in the old libraries, so, in fact, upgrading to the VIs is already asking us to pay a second time for the samples. I understand that the player clearly required development time and overheads, and that there needs to be a charge for this, but it is the same player for every library. So, in charging so much for the Standard Instruments the Vienna people are either charging us a total of about 3000 Euros for one sample player (which would make even Gigastudio seem very, very cheap) or they're charging again for the samples. Obviously original customers then get a heavy discount on the extended instruments, but that was just a sneaky way of making us buy more samples if we wanted to see our investment recouped.

No they are not honouring their upgrade program. It never was a program, it was given as a policy - a statement of permanent commitment. The Vienna people very proudly shouted that nobody would ever have to pay twice to use the same samples. Now they're simply going back on that - it's called lying.

Even if withdrawing the policy was reasonable, and it's not, the timescale is completely unreasonable. If we haven't already bought all the VIs it's probably because we're finding it tough to get the money together. How likely is it that two months is enough time to do something we couldn't do in three years?

Finally the notion that it's impossible to offer the upgrades from SE at the same time as from the old libraries is, quite frankly, utter crap. It's a simple case of working out which samples users already have in any particular combination of products, and charging for the others. Yes it's probably complicated, but telling customers that they can just go ahead and pay thousands of euros again to use the same samples, because the alternative is complicated, is the kind of downright arrogance I expect from politicians.

I would like to add my dismay, and disgust to that already expressed here. I'm going off to look into EW products.

@steff3 said:

before the officials chime in now to say this is not true - I do it 😊 (this seems only true for the guitar libs ... hmmmm, but than the VIP program was never extended for Horizon libs I think .... sadly it was not )

OK you're right that the samples weren't exactly the same - but the main difference between the Pro Library and the standard instruments seems to be just bit depth, for which the difference in price is still extreme.

As for the horizon series, I believe the VIP program does apply. So far I've bought Elements, and the downloadable Concert Guitar, and got a discount on the extended part of both. If you've got horizon libraries I would jump in there...if you can.

@companies_6392 said:

... continually changing the ground rules

after 5 years and after the first and the pro edition is no longer available the upgrade paths are now shifting to reflect changes of the product range ...

christian

@companies_6392 said:

we did it anyway because it's a worthwhile product & we understood there was TIME to migrate.

Right with you. I thought the upgrade path was dishonest, but I got used to the idea because I was going to buy all the extended libraries eventually, and the assurance of the time to do it was there. If Vienna wanted to change their policy then there should have been an announcemnet giving everyone a couple of years - these are not cheap products. Even over another two years I would struggle to find all the money, but it would have been do-able.

I think the point that SE customers and Pro-Library customers are essentially different bodies of people is essentially valid. I think, having once bought into the whole thing, very few customers will have then 'downgraded' to SE just to get into the VIs, because there was no guarantee of an upgrade route. I believe most of the old Giga crowd will have moved to the extended VIs route. Which means there is little complication with running a dual upgrade system. I don't think many people are going to say 'Well I own SE and the PRo Brass, so what extra discount do I get from Brass II?'

 I think this decision is potentially financial suicide. There are, after all, many very good libraries coming out. There are technologies that make libraries infinitely more playable than Vienna, at a fraction of the cost, also with a great sound. The only advantage Vienna has, at the moment, is that we already feel like we bought in - we were part way to having our complete solution. Creating a group of disgruntled customers who can no longer afford the Vienna range is just going to encourage those technologies to expand into a viable alternative.

@companies_6392 said:

... continually changing the ground rules

after 5 years and after the first and the pro edition is no longer available the upgrade paths are now shifting to reflect changes of the product range ...

christian

No it's not an exaggeration at all. Let's repeat, when you started, the promise for the 'flagship' pro route was that no customer would ever pay twice for the same samples. It was a revolutionary promise that made us all fell we could buy into VSL no matter how slowly our budgets allowed.

On the other hand SE was sold without any promise of an upgrade, in fact a very clear statement that there was none. Yet, now that some customers have bought SE, and then decided to complain about the lack of an upgrade (which they were clear about as they bought it) you've whipped the carpet out from under the feet of those customers who were always in it for the long haul.

@cm said:

after 5 years and after the first and the pro edition is no longer available the upgrade paths are now shifting to reflect changes of the product range ...

That's not the point. I think most people look forward to the new upgrade paths. But that there is such a short time left to upgrade, THAT is a problem. Most people can't afford, to upgrade in the following 3 months. Not even I, who "only" owns the Chamber Stinx. I'm just a small student with a not very well paid job. So almost everyone - not only the big Libraryusers - have problems with it.

And VSL promised, that I hav NOT to pay twice for existing samples. So tell me: if I can't upgrade now and want to have - for example - the standard Lib of the chamber Stinx after the deadline (to use : what do I have? Aren't that most of the samples? And I really want to play my strinx with the VI and without any performance-tool. 

I really love VSL but this is just very unfair.

Sebastian

@DG said:

 

For a start, there is no investment. You have a non-transferable licence, that's all. It has no value, except to you. This is not an investment.

DG

As someone who is fortunate to earn their livelyhood in the music industy I would certainly consider the money I have spent with VSL as an investment. Julian

@julian said:

So you don't agree with the Inland Revenue who allow you to claim tax credits against your VSL expenditure as it is an "investment" in your business? Equally any one going to University is "investing" in their education and their future? Mind you what's dropping quickest at the moment VSL's "investment" or those sub-prime based SIPPS!!? Julian

@julian said:

So you don't agree with the Inland Revenue who allow you to claim tax credits against your VSL expenditure as it is an "investment" in your business? Equally any one going to University is "investing" in their education and their future? Mind you what's dropping quickest at the moment VSL's "investment" or those sub-prime based SIPPS!!? Julian

But let's face it, we're all just twisting words here. We all know exactly what Julian meant when he called VSL an investment. He meant that the amount we'd forked out was protected, put us at a certain stage on the ladder, and that we never slipped back.

It's a perfectly valid use of the word investment, which has many meanings. So please PaulR and DG, just leave the semantics alone. It's taking the discussion off on a rather pedantic tangent.

@Another User said:

in·vest·ment
–noun
1. The investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

This undoubtedly falls under the term investment. By buying one of the VSL libraries you (those who earn a living from their craft) are spending money to make money. As time marches on technology and realism get better. The Vienna Instruments also allow you to get that superior sound in a shorter time than with the older libraries. If your competitors take advantage of that improvement then they'll take the edge and get more work while you'll be left in the dust.

Of course the library you have purchased doesn't cease to be usable after the deadline - but it does begin to look and sound dated as time goes on. And you have lost your ability to increase its worth (in income terms) by upgrading - that is without paying twice for the same samples.

 You certainly know that things have come to a sorry pass when the conversation turns to narrow argumentation over what does or does not constitute an investment. For the record, when economists speak of "business investment," they include things like computer hardware and software, vehicles etc. - - hence there are rules in the U.S. tax code governing depreciation and amortization of "investments" which lose their value over time.

The real problem here is not a semantic issue. It is what is perceived by many as a breach of promise made to customers by VSL. The danger for VSL in this is that it threatens one of its most important business assets - - which is "good will." (The legalistically inclined will be glad to learn that "good will" is recognized by the U.S. tax code as a business asset.) The perception this decision engenders - - even among those who are not directly impacted by it - - is that whatever promises VSL makes now or in the future cannot be relied upon by its customers. Whether the income produced by this decision is worth any such loss of good will remains an open question.  Microsoft, Apple, Autodesk, Adobe and other supersized corporations frequently change the rules in this fashion and get away with it most of the time - - but the effect may be different on a small company.

I'll give one example: when I ordered my G5 from Apple in June 2004, I also ordered Logic 6. Apple was unable to deliver the G5 for several months. It arrived, together with Logic 6 just three weeks before the release of Logic 7.  Apple was adamant that if I had purchased Logic 6 a week later than the date they had charged my credit card, I would have been eligible for a free upgrade to Logic 7, but, since the interval was three rather than two weeks, I was not so eligible and would have to pay the $300 upgrade price for a product for which I had just spent $1000.

At the same time, as I ordered the G5 and Logic 6 from Apple, I had also ordered an upgrade of Digital Performer to version 4 but could not use it because of Apple's delay in delivering the G5. When Digital Performer 4.5 became available, MOTU notified me that I was eligible for a free upgrade - - even though it had been three months since I had ordered and received the upgrade to DP 4. As a result of Apple's policy, I did not upgrade to Logic 7 until about a year later.

Although I have respect for and use Apple's products, this experience demolished whatevever positive illusions I might have had about Apple's business practices. In Apple's calculation, it appears that the loss of good will engendered by their policy was of no concern. 

MOTU, on the other hand, appears to have decided that the loss of good will that would be engendered if they followed Apple's example, would have a significant negative impact on their business. But then, MOTU is a relatively small company aware that it does not have an enormous market into which it can sell computers, iPods, cellphones, AppleTVs, etc. 

Sorry for my bad english (it's not my mother language) 

I am (was?) the happy owner of some Horizon stuff (Opus 1, Solo Strings, Chamber Strings). I was planing to buy this year some VI (Brass 1, Woodwinds 1 and Special Keyboards) to add new colors to my set : I would have paid for this around 1300 Euros. Now I feel forced to upgrade my Horizon stuff before 15th of July for the same price... and get nothing but a (OK ! far better) piece of software, just not to loose for ever my VIP pass.

I am now just asking myself if I shall spend 1 Euro...