some questions about notation

[RainerL]

Hello and Moin!

I want to learn a bit more about orchestration and arrangement, and so I looked into some scores of orchestral pieces that I know very well from listening. My problem is that I don´t know surely how the ensemble plays some passages or chords. It would be great if you could help me to understand it. I´m sorry that I don´t have direct links to the scores but I try to explain accurately.

First example: Mozart Serenade in G major, KV 525 "Eine kleine Nachtmusik":

First movement, first bar, beginning: for Violines 1 and Violines 2 -both- there is notated a chord: D4-B4-G5

To play this chord would mean to use 3 different strings. My question: Does each violin play the full chord? is it normal for a violinist to play such chords with 3 notes at once?

Second example: Beethoven Symphonie Nr. 5, 1 movement

There is a G maj chord notated (forte and sustained) for violins 1 and violins 2. Vl. 2 play: G3-D4-B4. All notes at once, I suppose?

But Violins 1 play: G3-D4-B4-G5 !  How do they play this chord?  maybe they cheat a bit and play something like a short arpeggio with accent on G5? 

Best,

Rainer

[nicks]

Dear Rainer,

I've not actually played either of these pieces on the violin (well - Eine Kleine when I was very young, so it doesn't really count).  However, the technique you are talking about is double-stopping (with two notes), triple-stopping (with three) or quadruple-stopping (with four).

Double-stopping is fine on the violin, and you can even achieve a measure of independence of the two lines if the composer has sensibly written the part.  Triple stopping is also fine, but generally has to be reasonably loud, and will usually not be sustained.  Placement of the notes has to be very careful, since the hand can only be in one position on the fingerboard at a time.  The reason it is pretty loud is that the middle two strings on a violin (in fact all stringed instruments) are slightly raised compared to the outer two - this is because the bridge on which they rest is curved.  Quadruple-stopping is possible, but would have to be played loud, and you end up with a focus on the middle strings (because the bow is hitting them harder to depress the strings so the outer strings could be played).  It is quite usual to split a quadruple stop (usually bottom-two, then shifting the bow and playing the top two).

So - regarding your examples.  By memory, the beginning of Eine Kleine is pretty loud, so the three notes would be played simultaneously by a single violinist (triple-stopped).  No problem there.

Also never played the Beethoven, but looking at the score, it is notated as a crotchet for the lower three notes, and a minim on the top (with a pause).  The logical way to play this as a string player (and again by memory I think this is how it is generally played) would be to triple-stop the lower three notes, then move the heel of the bow downwards quickly to play the top note on its own, on the same down bow (or probably a down followed by an up), and sustained.

Please - any more recent string players come in and correct me on this.

Hope this helps,

Kind Regards,

Nick.

[RainerL]

Dear Nick,

thank you very much for your explanation! This helps me a lot!

Best,

Rainer

[Angelo Clematide]

@RLeutert_14950 said:

First example: Mozart Serenade in G major, KV 525 "Eine kleine Nachtmusik":

First movement, first bar, beginning: for Violines 1 and Violines 2 -both- there is notated a chord: D4-B4-G5

To play this chord would mean to use 3 different strings. My question: Does each violin play the full chord? is it normal for a violinist to play such chords with 3 notes at once?

Second example: Beethoven Symphonie Nr. 5, 1 movement

There is a G maj chord notated (forte and sustained) for violins 1 and violins 2. Vl. 2 play: G3-D4-B4. All notes at once, I suppose?

But Violins 1 play: G3-D4-B4-G5 !  How do they play this chord?  maybe they cheat a bit and play something like a short arpeggio with accent on G5? 

0) There is no cheat in the performance of a real orchestra.

Divisi or non-divisi, respectively multiple  stopping?

1) Arco: double, triple, and quadruple stopping (collectively known as multiple stopping) are to be avoided when the interval or chord contains pure fifths.

2) Multiple stopping is acceptable when the intonation is good.

3) Pizzicati: For reasons of intonation multiple stoppings in pizzicati are to be avoided.

4) The chord always has to sound as simultanous as possible.

5) Multiple stopping of four notes at once is almost impossible, even with the Bach bow. The way of playing four note chords is to strike the lower notes and allow them to ring while the bow plays the upper notes, this gives the illusion of a real quadruple stop.

6) The first chord in measure one in Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" contains no pure fifth and can be performed in triple stopping.

7) In Beethoven's partiture, the distinction between double-stopping and divisi is not indicated. The composers did not expect three notes to be played at once, even though the notes be written in a way to suggest this.

8) In Beethoven's Sinfonien the difficulty is to change between arco and pizzicato.

LvB Sinfonie Nr. 1, measure one, pizz.

The multiple stopping of pizzicati is avoided for better intonation. The pizzicati are performed with "Spitzenoten" and "tiefe Noten," (English: upper notes and lower notes), respectively divisi.

LvB Sinfonie Nr. 1, measure eight, ten.

The three note chord, top to bottom D-F-A, is execute in Violins I = upper notes and Violins II = lower notes:

D = Violins I, the outer seats

F = Violins I, the inner seats

F = Violins II, the outer seats

A = Violins II, the inner seats

9) For the right sound and rhythm, it can be necessary that two or more Abstriche (down bows) are executed in consecutive order.

10) In a simulation with samples programming double stopping is not possible. You can make a rhythmical approximation by time offsetting the strings, similar as iin faking guitar strumming.

.

[Brian]

@RLeutert_14950 said:

First example: Mozart Serenade in G major, KV 525 "Eine kleine Nachtmusik":

First movement, first bar, beginning: for Violines 1 and Violines 2 -both- there is notated a chord: D4-B4-G5

To play this chord would mean to use 3 different strings. My question: Does each violin play the full chord? is it normal for a violinist to play such chords with 3 notes at once?

Second example: Beethoven Symphonie Nr. 5, 1 movement

There is a G maj chord notated (forte and sustained) for violins 1 and violins 2. Vl. 2 play: G3-D4-B4. All notes at once, I suppose?

But Violins 1 play: G3-D4-B4-G5 !  How do they play this chord?  maybe they cheat a bit and play something like a short arpeggio with accent on G5? 

1) Arco: double, triple, and quadruple stopping (collectively known as multiple stopping) are to be avoided when the interval or chord contains pure fifths.

  

Hi RLeutert,

After Angelo's great explanation I felt like chiming in because I believe one of his statements to be partially in error if the person reading it does not understand how string instruments work.  It is quoted above where he says pure fifths are to be avoided.  This is very good advice MOST of the time, however pure fifths can be really easy for violinists, violists, and cellists to play if the notes are on OPEN strings, that is strings that are naturally tuned to those pitches and do not require fingering.  The Bass is tuned by fourths, so for it fourths on open strings would be easy to play.  Indeed in your Beethoven example: Symphony No. 5, mvt. 1, measure 21, Vln. I (G3-D4-B4-G5) G3 to D4 has a pure fifth.  However, G3 and D4 are open strings on the violin so that only B4 (fingered on the A string) and G5 (fingered on the E string) are the only two pitches requiring fingering.  I would recommend getting an orchestration book for looking up these technicalities.  Samuel Adler's book is very popular, but I think the Kent Kennan & Donald Grantham text is good for beginners.  Also, Donald Martino's STRINGOGRAPH is an absolutely wonderful tool for learning what is cool and what is awkward on strings instruments.  It is basically a cardboard neck with all Violin, Viola, and Cello positions marked on it.  You can physically tryout multiple stops yourself, feeling first hand what it would feel like for a strings player to do them.  You will immediately feel yourself how easy or hard a position is to reach and switch between other positions.  Its not as good as having a real violin, but it at least has the positions marked and is of course many thousands of dollars less than a real string instrument.

http://www.dantalian.com/stringograph_bach_chorales.htm

Unfortunetly, there is no way to order online, and I believe you have to call them if you want to order the stringograph.

Cheers, Brian

[Angelo Clematide]

There is another error in my text:

@Angelo Clematide said:

10) In a simulation with samples programming double stopping is not possible. You can make a rhythmical approximation by time offsetting the strings, similar as in faking guitar strumming.

Errata:  

In a simulation with samples programming triple stopping is not possible. You can make a rhythmical approximation by time offsetting the strings, similar as in faking guitar strumming.

Double stops can be performed perfectly simultanous.

.

[RainerL]

Many thanks to Angelo and Brian, too! You help me a lot to understand and maybe to realize similar techniques with VSL - though I would never get the idea to force a violinist to play 4 Notes simultanously...

I study your explanations and hope I understand all in the right way.

Best,

Rainer