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  4. Help with brass

  • Help with brass

    M
    M

    Hi everybody.

    I am quite new to VSL, but I'm loving it immensely. I own Special Edition and Appassionata strings. I find the sound quite good, but my brass instruments sound totally bad. I don't know if I should buy the Special Brass or if I should keep trying, because sound from my brass instruments is entirely synthetic. This weekend I've started to work on a piece for our new game and although it's WIP I'd like to some seasoned VSL'er say me what could I do to make it sound better! I am using there horns, trumpets and trombones in the brass parts. Also there's no eq on the brass.

    Please note that it's a WIP, so no mastering was done and only minimal dynamics is included. (also I use EWQL Symphonic Choirs for this track)

    http://www.ghostinthesheet.com/wardance.ogg

    Thanks in advance,

    Jan Kavan 
  • P
    P

    More reverb will help it a bit, as well as not hitting ff layers too often... make use of the alternative staccatos for repeated notes. Overall I'd expect a bit more dynamics in all parts. That will also help you not to trigger the same samples over and over thus resulting in the slightly static feel it has at the moment. I'm not to fond of the 3 trumpets and 4 horns sound either since I find myself using the 8 horns more than often now. Layering solo trumpet and horn here will also help it.

    Hope this helps,

    PolarBear 
  • M
    M

    Thanks for the advice. By "Overall I'd expect a bit more dynamics in all parts" you mean to have it in louder dynamics or to have more dynamical changes?

    As I've noted, it's WIP and I'll elaborate much more on the dynamics later on. I'll try to play with reverb some more, to be honest, it's just the pretty basic setting now (more or less to flesh out the arrange from paper to piano roll). The reason why I got stuck was mainly the fact, that I was stopped by the evil sound of brass which sounded as if from some cheap library in comparison to stock stuff from the rest of the VSL (woodwinds, strings). But if getting Special Brass is the only way to go, I'd have to save some more money. :)

    Thanks again,

    Jan 
  • P
    P

    I meant dynamical changes, also within a certain phrase.

    For example I'd program the repeated horn figure three notes short, one sustained after:

    velocity levels like 95 -  75 - 100 - 105

    program order stac1 - stac1 - stac2 - sus

    Or 4 staccatos before a sforzando

    velocity levels like 90 -  70 - 105 - 85 - 100

    program order stac1 - stac2 - stac2 - stac1 - sfz (or sffz/fp/sus with cc11 faded whichever fits best)

    That is for my Opus 1 though, you'd have to figure out for SE where the transitions between the velocity layers are - for Opus 1 that is 67-88 for the mf layer, 89-108 for the f layer and 109-127 for the ff layer, so basically I switch between the f and mf layer for doing this, the ff layer being already standing out again in timbre.

    I'd assume you'd have SE Ext, but it seems that you only have SE Std, so you don't have the 8 horn patch. You could benefit of Special Brass with the 6 player trumpet ensemble, but I think the 3 player ensemble plus solo trumpet does quite well, which is not so valid for the 4 horns plus solo IMHO, and I'd rather go SE Ext for the 8 horns than Special Brass, also because you get quite a lot more for the same kind of money (unless you're really into cornet, alto trombone or euphonium).

    Hope this helps,

    PolarBear 
  • M
    M

    Metamorphium,

    What program does your file open with. I can save it but can't find a player to open .ogg

    ?

     Mahlon
  • M
    M

    PolarBear, thanks. I got confused with licenses :( I have SE standard and Brass PLUS, which are entirely different than in the extended version. I thought that it was just a cool stuff from VSL to separate parts of extended library and put it as pluses, because I for example needed from extended library only woodwinds and brass, because I use Appassionata (standard and extended). Too late... Thanks for tips though, I'll try to struggle some more.

    Mahlon: you can use winamp for example, or open it in any wave editor (Wavelab, Soundforge etc.). I don't know about Mac though, I'm a PC person. [;)] 
  • D
    D

    I can't play your example, so I won't be able to offer much in the way of help, except to say with the right skills, the Brass is very good in VSL. Most of the problems I've heard are through bad programming, writing or both. Post an mp3 and I'll try to help.

    DG
  • M
    M

    DG, http://www.ghostinthesheet.com/01.mp3

    Thanks!

    Ps. I still hope it's my sloppy programming, because I would like to save some money for other purposes too. [:)] 
  • D
    D

    OK, I hear exactly what you're talking about. In addition to the information above, I think that this is caused by two other factors:

    1. The brass sounds phasey as if it is using velocity xFade and is set right on the cross=over. It can also be caused, particularly in the trumpets, if you are using Ensemble patches for repeated note figures. These work much better with solo patches. the horns never seem to suffer from this though.
    2. Your mix really doesn't work. OK, that you like it very dry, but the brass sound as if they are closer than the strings, which gives a very strange effect. Be aware that even when you record real brass players, if they play in a small acoustic, close up, if can also sound synthy.

    Next stage for you is to provide a short MIDI file of the sections that you don't like and see if any of us can get a sound that you like. I think that you will learn a lot from this. Unfortunately I only have the Cube so I can't use exactly the same patches as you, but it should be close enough.

    DG
  • L
    L

    I'd say the first thing is, that everything seems extremely dry. Have you put any reverb on the piece after all ?

    Especially the brasses, which sit normally quite deep in the room, just need a certain amount of reverb, or they can only sound strange.

    Remember, unlike in other sample-libraries, the VSL samples are completely dry.

    Next thing is for example on 0:32.

    Program it that way, that not every note has the same velocity. Just differ it a little bit will immediatly make it sound not so samplish.

    And then I'm not sure, what patch you've used there, but the best would be a performance repetition patch or at least the staccato with the 2 alternations.
  • M
    M

    Thank you for your kind and helpful comments. I'll try to do my "homework" first by applying the advices as much as possible. Ad reverb, there's just some generic (all compassing) reverb on the master output. I use normally reverb "positioning" - by moving instruments farther from listener -  when I'm much further in the process (eg. when the piece is laid out) but I'll try to work on this sample applying all your help and if I'm not happy with the result, I'll come back with a midi file.

    Thank you again very much for you help!