Hey Emanuel,

I saw your thread and decided to reply, though I am definitely not an expert in any way on the Symphonic Cube, but from what I've read, heard on VSL, and learned a bit myself I would not be so quick to decide to resell the VI Solo Strings library.  As far as reselling is concerned I think one of the VSL folks needs to answer that part of your question, but if you are just now purchasing the Cube I would deeply consider holding on to Solo Strings.  Not only is it a great library (check out this solo strings mock-up by Jay Bacal: http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/17673.aspx), but I think a lot of people use it with orchestral strings to help with the overall mix, even if they are not using it for solo parts.  See here as just one example: http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/17524.aspx?PageIndex=2  Using a sample library for an orchestral mock-up is not like writing for a real orchestra (as I'm starting to learn through experience) and that sometimes in order to get a more realistic sound, you have to use unconventional means or tricks that wouldn't be necessary with a real orchestra which might include using solo strings when there are no written solo string parts. There that's all I'm going to say about that.  VSL products are amazing, I'm sure you'll be very happy with them.

Brian 

Well I didn't read the end user agreement, but I don't know. I also don't know how the VSL CUBE works so if each libaray has its own liscence and you didn't install it or open that particular one then I suppose you could but DO NOT TAKE MY WORD ON THAT!

My default asnwer would be no as it's part of the VSL Cube library as a whole so I don't think so. I'm just saying this from what I've seen in past experiance though. 

emanuel, generally you cannot (re-)sell a VSL library because you do not own it - you have licensed its usage according to the license agreement http://vsl.co.at/en/65/75/443/522/340.vsl

also it should be pretty clear that if you purchase a bundle you cannot decide by yourself to split such a bundle - would you think you can purchase adobe creative suite and re-sell single contained programs?

two minor important notes: we are requesting the shutdown of every auction of VSL libraries on ebay or similar platforms we notice because this is a violation of the license agreement and: VSL does not use iLok to store licenses but a syncrosoft e-Licenser (ViennaKey)

christian

Hi Christian, Brian and Dreamcube,

Thanks for your input in this thread!

The licensing issue in particular is dissapointing.

Thank you for pointing it out, Christian, I was not aware of this uncommon way of trade.

This will not be news for the creators.

It seems like VSL is too greedy in my opinion.

Unfortunately, there is no alternative... yet...

Brian; thanks for the tip!

I understand you completely, thanks for pointing it out. ;)

emanuel, besides i do not see any greediness with VSL at all, that's how licensing works.

imagine [insert any film or music distributor, footage or photo agency, ect here] is licensing you the right to present a certain work for a certain time in a certain region using a certain medium - would you be allowed to re-sell such a license? no ...

VSL is licensing to you for a one-time fee the usage of the samples for any work, as long and often you like, in any region and on any media - but the license is for _you_, not your friend, not your studio colleague, not for some *second hand* buyer ... this appears to me to be very common.

christian

ps: VSL even allows the compilation of music libraries (as long as the samples are not presented *soloed*), something not always common in the sample business ....

Ok Christian, lets look at this again.

1. When I buy the Special Edition, and I want to upgrade; this means I've lost that 810 euro, right? Or what would the refund be by the local distributor? (you can look up my geographical info in my profile).

2. Undoubtetly pointed out before; my Roland Fantom and XV synths did not come with licensing. Neither did my Yamaha or Kawai keyboards, Nordlead or Access Virus modules or my Native Instruments plugins... why is VSL the exeption? It's not really the licensing... its the reselling issue. I can easely resell a keyboard or plugin. But with VSL, it seems that only the company gets the boon. I did not use that term "greedy" without feelin' a need for it.

let me reply to 2) first ... your roland or yamaha keyboard or moog is _producing_ (creating) sound, your NI plugin is _manipulating_ (altering) sound, your VSL library is _playing_ a recorded, stored sound. there are no transistors, strings, modulation, whatever in the Vienna Instruments, only a clever algorithm to paste certain portions of previously recorded sound together.

ad 1) VSL guarantees these sounds are free of copyrights and you can use it for any work, which you can publish under any license you like (actually under the creative commons license - a kind of cousin of the GPL) - remember also you will remain the *owner* (copyright holder) of this work according to the national regulations (only a few countries like antigua have not regulated copyrights)

now something comes into the game known as *chain of rights* - you agree in a contract with your label (motion-picture company, whoever) the work you deliver is free from third party copyrights and you receive something for it (one time, percentage of revenue, monthly fee, whatever).

two years later you decide you don't need a library any more and *sell* it - oops, suddenly your given word (your work beeing free of third party rights) is no longer valid, because the license now belongs to someone else. too bad, you would need to get an agreement with VSL for a certain usage of samples for a certain work.

this is more a kind of abstract reflection about how finally the license agreement takes care about your legal situation but it should make clear how basically wrong discussions about *re-selling* are, they are touching another topic.

counterquestion: would you be happy if your label would be *selling* 2 tracks from your latest CD as a soundtrack for a movie (without you having agreed of course) - or would you ask them for additional revenues?

i have to admit the situation with the special edition is somehow *special* (a powerful orchestra for relatively little money) and as posted earlier currently there is no offer or solution for users willing to upgrade, but if you read back over the years i'm sure you will find out VSL has always been taking care on their users and not so always made completely commercially founded decisions.

christian

ps: belgium ... hmmm ... maybe you can find a convenient location here

 I just remembered, but VSL isn't the only company who does that. EwastWest also makes it so you can't sell the libraries. It's in the END  user liscence agreement. You're the END user, there for the sell ends with you buying it. You don't have a liscence to sell it...

I guess it's one of those security things that people don't really like to much but generally keeps everyone happy, things working right, and that keeps things fare.

An upgrade offer would be nice though. 

Hi all,

Thanks for the input.

This is not an easy decision...

I will probably end up buying just the Special Edition.

And we'll see from there... Hope VSL makes an upgrade path.

I wonder what the VIP price would be for the standard "Super Package" coming from the Extended S.E.

Christian; can you answer that more or less?

Thanks!

-Em

Oh, by the way, might I change course and indeed go for the Symphonic Cube; the soonest I can order it here at my local store is January 3rd 2008. Is that still ok with the promotion? It would only arrive about 10 days later, so I guess the registering would be out of date?

emanuel, discounts only apply to extended libraries - everything else (discount on the *boxes* coming with standard) would be much too complicated regarding clearing between VSL, distributors and dealers.

i think it is a great option that distributors and authorized dealers can sell extended libraries and detirmine if a discount applies for a certain user.

of course you understand i'm not authorized to promise possible future discounts here, nor estimations about their scope or extent.

we know that often some time goes by between purchase and registration, so there is always a kind of *grace period* and in worst case you simply send us the proof of purchase and we proceed manually ...

in case of purchasing the symphonic cube at a store (and the guys there are not 100% familiar with the promotion) ... order the symphonic cube standard, order the 8 cheaper extended libraries so leaving the 2 most expensive for the *free extended promotion*

christian

OK, sounds good,

that keeps my options open till January 3rd :)

Thanks!

-Em

Hi Christian,

So here we are, January 3rd.

Kind of made up my mind; The Symphonic Cube it is!

Possibly augmented by the keyboards package and Appassionata strings.

(All of these; "standard" editions)

If I order today - meaning I'l only have the product in 10 days,

can you assure me that I can have those 2 or 3 free extended libraries?

I promise to register as soon as I can. ;)

I'll wait for your answer before going to my local shop.

Thanks man,

-Emanuel

i replied in an email ... christian

Great, thanks Christian!

Symphonic Cube is on order :)

-Em

Hi there!

I ordered the Symphonic Cube 1 month ago, it still hasn't arrived.

Starting to get a bit worried here... is this normal?

-Em

Nope... I'd contact the dealer which is delivering to you. That should be BestService in your case, even if you ordered from VSL website. check back with them at www.bestservice.de!

All the best,

PolarBear 

Ok  I will, thanks.

More news on tuesday...

Just to clarify: Vienna Special Edition also cannot be resold, or is it an exception due to its duplication and entry-level nature?

I ordered five libraries before Xmas and two more that arrived today, and will be ordering at least one more by the end of the month. I need to get a larger external hard drive before installing these latest ones, but even with the ones already installed, the qualititative difference is so immense that I would be inclined to stop using VSE altogether and just one-by-one complete my collection of the full libraries. I didn't expect this; I thought I would merely be getting more articulations vs. also getting much better quality with the articulations that overlap VSE.

For some reason I can't find the FAQ's page on the website today, which I thought I remembered seeing earlier and which I thought spelled out the exact policy for the Special Edition. I have Extended and was considering buying Plus, but am less inclined to do so if there is no resale value nor any discount value towards the full collections, as we are by now talking about an almost $2000 investment.

My own thought on this is that the Special Edition seeds sales for your full libraries, and as it is otherwise redundant and somewhat of a super-set of the collections now being packaged with both Kontakt 3 and Mach Five V2, it seems that an exception is in order if there isn't already in place, as the net result would probably be far more people buying into the full libraries (primarily because of the K2 and Mach Five "giveaways").