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  • ProTools vs Cakewalk

    Hi,

    I am using Sonar, but I am not very happy with it.

    I tried ProTools on the Mac (the demo version) and I start to like it.

    Given that VSL RTAS for Windows will come anytime in the future, would it be worthwile to switch?

    I am on the brink of re-organizeing my recording part of the studio and this could mean to buy either DigiRack or maybe the "big Thing".

    But is it a money hog or do I gain professional quality?

    Any thoughts welcome - this is probably a matter of taste, to a certain extend.

    -hs


    Too old for Rock n Roll. Too young for 9th symphonies. Wagner Lover, IRCAM Alumni. Double Bass player starting in low Es. I am where noise is music.
  • Hi Holger,

    I'm guessing that when you say "DigiRack" you probably mean one of the rack-mounted versions of the Digi002 or 003? Confusingly "DigiRack" is the name of the suite of software plug-ins that comes with all PT systems. In that case you would be using Pro Tools LE. There are two basic forms of PT, there's the LE version, which is cheaper and generally runs using just a fairly straightforward USB or FireWire interface and then there are TDM systems, the current version of which is called Pro Tools|HD. These are generally used either by professionals or by people (like myself) who've saved up a lot of money to buy one because we have delusions of grandeur.

    There are some differences between the two software versions but nowhere near as much as they used to be and I don't think there's anything really important that's missing from the LE version.

    As always with such things, it's very much a matter of personal taste. I've tried most of the major sequencer packages and although I can see why other people love Logic, Cubase, Digital Performer, Sonar, etc. etc. personally I prefer PT. This is probaby at least partly because I learned about recording in tape-based studios so I like to work primarily with audio and I like what MIDI (these days that means mainly the VIs!) I do use to be as closely integrated as possible. The great thing about PT is its simplicity. It has just 2 windows to navigate and you can do everything in those 2 windows. Basically most of the other sequencers I've mentioned started life as MIDI sequencers and then had audio grafted onto them once computers became powerful enough to handle it (mid-to-late nineties). With PT it was the other way around, it was an audio recording program to which MIDI was added not all that long ago.

    Because I've had an HD system since 2000 I've never tried any of the LE ones but I believe things like the Mbox and 002/003 are excellent interfaces - whether you'll see an improvement in quality will depend on what you're using now. I saw a big difference because I went from using an interface costing maybe £300 (back then) to using a £6000 Pro Tools TDM system which came with pretty high-class converters, al least in comparison to my previous ones although you can go higher... But then one of the rules of equipment is that you can always go higher if you spend more money... Which is why most musicians are broke, of course. [:)]

    So basically, unless you're thinking of upgrading by spending some serious money on a TDM system (and there are a few competing systems, I know people who swear by Soundscape, for instance, or there's Nuendo... And several others), which I don't think you are from what you say, it really depends on what equipment (hardware as well as software) you're using now and whether you're happy with your software. It sounds as though you're not. The PT software isn't to everyone's taste, of course, but if you liked the demo then chances are you'll like the full version. 

    Another advantage of an LE system is that it's really pretty compatible with full TDM systems. This means you can record a load of stuff and then to a professional studio and if they've a full TDM system (which many have) they'll be able to open your sessions. Can be very useful, that.  

    The RTAS VI for the Mac is now working very well indeed on my system and it's been an absolute godsend, I'm getting so much more done than before when I was having to run 2 separate Macs and transfer audio and MIDI between them. Thank God that's over and thank you VSL.

    Anyway, I mustn't go on, I've got work I'm supposed to be doing to pay for all this kit...  I hope this helps a bit.

    Nick 


    Mac Mini M2 16Gb RAM 500Gb int. SSD 2Tb ext. SSD Pro Tools/Mixbus An awful lot of VI, Synchron-ised and Synchron libraries, amongst others. VSL user since 2003.
  • thanks for sharing in-depth your experience. It has helped a lot.

    hs


    Too old for Rock n Roll. Too young for 9th symphonies. Wagner Lover, IRCAM Alumni. Double Bass player starting in low Es. I am where noise is music.
  • Here is my 2 cents. Although ProTools|HD is a fantastic application I don't really see lots of benefits with the LE version for a composer. Only 32 tracks of audio unless you get the Toolkit upgrade to 48 tracks. No automatic delay compensation for plugins, you have to nudge tracks manually for plugins that have inherent delay like look-ahead compressers and limiters... No notation. Only RTAS plugins. No 64-bit version insight and LE upgrades are usually released after HD. Its a system hog and requires loads of RAM whereas Sonar will run with under 100mb (look in Task Manager and see.) PT requires 3x that much just to launch. No faster than realtime bounce. So, if you have a 5 minute song you have to sit and wait for it to play through to bounce it down. Sonar can cut the time down to half. PT ingeneral was designed for audio engineers not composers. MIDI features were added only a few years ago whereas the other software packages have a mature MIDI implementation and far more MIDI features. MIDI is all about editing. The extra screens are welcome when you need to see the data in different ways. If you are considering PTHD then go for it but, I don't think LE is in anyway an upgrade from Sonar. I consider it a downgrade. But it is true PT is a fast and slick application, its just not feature-rich for the MIDI composer. At least not from what I've seen. Good luck! David

  • Hi , very interested in your post...I'm a Pro Tools LE/Digi 003 user, new and inexperienced, been using IK Philharmonik with no problems, just bought Special Edition and having problems installing it (computer can't recognise the 'package info' file on the first installation DVD). I have a PC with an Intel dual Core 2.14 with 2Gb RAM, and was told that the programme would run fine on my system-it DOES support RTAS, does it not? What is the RTAS VI you are referring to on your Mac?

    Regards

    John  


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    last edited

    @gimics said:

    Hi , very interested in your post...I'm a Pro Tools LE/Digi 003 user, new and inexperienced, been using IK Philharmonik with no problems, just bought Special Edition and having problems installing it (computer can't recognise the 'package info' file on the first installation DVD). I have a PC with an Intel dual Core 2.14 with 2Gb RAM, and was told that the programme would run fine on my system-it DOES support RTAS, does it not? What is the RTAS VI you are referring to on your Mac?

    Regards

    John  

     Hi John,

    Although there is not yet a PC version of the RTAS Vienna Instruments plug-in (the Mac version has only been out for a few weeks, but it's working really well on my PT|HD system on a Mac Pro) you should still be able to find a way of using the SE with it. You'll just need to find a workaround. As it's years since I used a PC for music I can't really remember how you do it, but until the Mac RTAS came out in September all PT users were in the same boat. Some people (including me) ran their VIs on a second computer (an old G4 in my case, this wasn't ideal but it did work). But it should also be possible to run the standalone VI as a separate application, send MIDI to it from PT and then route the audio back into PT and this shouldn't be too difficult. I suspect that Vienna Ensemble (due for release later today) will make this a hell of a lot easier to do as you'll be able to run multiple VI instances. So if I were you I'd keep a close eye on Ensemble over the next few days. It's a free download to all registered users so it won't you cost a penny. If you'd like to let me have your e-mail address I'll try and help with this a bit more.

    Not sure why you're having trouble installing the SE, though as this is completely independent of the host application. At the very least you should be able to install the VST and standalone versions. You run the VI installer, then at the end of the process it starts the library installer which asks you to browse to your DVD drive. But there are other people better qualified to help with this as I'm running all my studio stuff on a Mac and have been for several years now. 

    Anyway, feel free to get in touch if I can help.

    Nick 


    Mac Mini M2 16Gb RAM 500Gb int. SSD 2Tb ext. SSD Pro Tools/Mixbus An awful lot of VI, Synchron-ised and Synchron libraries, amongst others. VSL user since 2003.
  • Hey DM33, Excellent piont. I have been using Sonar for a few years and I love it. In an attempt to become more "industry standard" I talked myself into going PT and bought a Mac Pro Quad core. It has been sitting in the corner since January !! I got so bewildered when it came time to pick which route to take LE with M-Audio, Digi 003, an affordable HD etc..and could not make the jump.My main issues are (a) I don't really like the mixing in the box deal. I love faders and dont want to get rid of my board and by some small control surface. (b) I also really like the Apoggee ensemble interface but could'nt quite commit to that either. My latest contemplation is Runnug Sonar on the Mac via bootcamp or parrallels instead of having it sit in the corner like shiny silver piece of furniture. I don't  think PT will ever be what I want it to be with regard to midi applications. Im just hoping I can find an interface that I really love (and can afford) and not run into any problems running Sonar. It's been quite stable for me even on a 3 year old Pentium lV Dell PC. Maybe I'll just get one of those Mbox deals in the $500 range for customers who just have to see Pro Tools in the studio session they pay for. I just got a Manley Vox Box and I don't want everything else in the chain to just take away from a great sounding vocal leaving the Manley and going through a crappy interface with sub par AD/DA converters. I guess my point is reading your comment showed me that just because everyone conciders PT the "pro" standard, it's not mandatory for me to abandon what has worked wonders for me for years. I think Sonar is the "Bomb". and if I don't come up with a working set up ..I'll probably sell the Mac before switching from Sonar. I just know that if I can get it to work reliably on that machine it would probably be sweet and make me fall in love with Sonar all over again. Thanks for your post dude. Just writing this email was kind of theraputic for me.

    Peace.


  • Hey streetbuzz, I think PT HD has a lot going for it in the audio department and thats where its strengths lay which is why its all the studio and is a standard. But when it comes to MIDI features apps like Sonar, Logic....are much further ahead and as a composer my workflow starts in MIDI. ANyway I hope you resolve your issues and get back to making music. Good luck!