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  • Real vocal recording

    S
    S

    I use VSL and VI as my live or recorded chamber and orchestral ensembles.

    As I use it mainly for classical music and sometimes for Opera, I have to record Tenors and Sopranos.

    I'm very scared in using a Compressor but they have a great dynamic so sometime I get some "over 0 db" recordings.

    I than use an Adobe Audition effect to restore the track.

    The question:

    is it better to have some compression (max 4-5 db) or to restore the track?

    Is there a compressor suitable for recording classical music without pumping and artifacts that does not cost more then 1000 dollars or 1200 euros?

    Thanxs

    Sergino
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
    last edited
    last edited

    @Sergino Futurino said:

    I have to record Tenors and Sopranos. I'm very scared in using a Compressor but they have a great dynamic so sometime I get some "over 0 db" recordings.

    The question:

    is it better to have some compression (max 4-5 db) or to restore the track?

    Is there a compressor suitable for recording classical music without pumping and artifacts that does not cost more then 1000 dollars or 1200 euros?

    Thanxs

    Sergino

     

    Hi Sergio

    As you mentioned: The singers have a very great dynamic - specially in case of recording them close to the mic.

    I recommend to take a compressor - combined with a limiter. All recording studios use compressors in connection with singers - even if they a classical singers. A compressor amplyfies the quiet parts and reduce the loud parts of a voice. This is not a problem because the voice has another character while singing a p or ff. This information you doesn't lose with a compressor!

    Use the compressing effect as far as you need it and you will get no pumping effect (use correct and "normal" adjustments).

    There are PlugIn- and Hardware- Compressors which are specially built for compressing voices... 

    Software compressors often come with some voice presets. Use such a preset as a starting point.

    A cheap but nevertheless a good solution is the Voxformer-PlugIn of Voxengo.

    A cheap hardware solution is the SM Pro Audio TB202 .

    If you would like to spend more money - no problem:

    Very good Compressors (Hardware) you will find with: Teletronix, UREI, Drawmer, Portico, SPL... or  Manley Voxbox ...

    All the best 

    Beat Kaufmann 

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • S
    S

    Thank you for your kind and detailed answer, but maybe I wasn't so clear in my question that is:

    I can get a better result

    a) using a Compressor like the SM Pro Audio .that you mention

    or

    b) restoring the wave with a restoration plug-ins that re-draw the envelope of the wave in the rare parts where it reaches and surpass 0db

    And,  is there a compressor (or more than 1 , I guess) that is not cheap as the SM Pro Audio but even doesn't is so expensive like the Manley Voxbox that make the a) solution better than the b) iat a cost of  1000 Euros (1300$ ).

    I have an old Berhinger Autocom 1200  but I don't like it anymore.

    Ciao

    Sergino
  • M
    M

    b) is NOT the way to go. 
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
    last edited
    last edited

    @Sergino Futurino said:

    Thank you for your kind and detailed answer, but maybe I wasn't so clear in my question that is:

    I can get a better result

    a) using a Compressor like the SM Pro Audio .that you mention

    or

    b) restoring the wave with a restoration plug-ins that re-draw the envelope of the wave in the rare parts where it reaches and surpass 0db

    And,  is there a compressor (or more than 1 , I guess) that is not cheap as the SM Pro Audio but even doesn't is so expensive like the Manley Voxbox that make the a) solution better than the b) iat a cost of  1000 Euros (1300$ ).

    I have an old Berhinger Autocom 1200  but I don't like it anymore.

    Ciao

    Sergino

     

    Hello again

    a)

    and

    Channel Strip

    Beat 

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • A
    A
    last edited
    last edited

    @Sergino Futurino said:

    I use VSL and VI as my live or recorded chamber and orchestral ensembles.

    As I use it mainly for classical music and sometimes for Opera, I have to record Tenors and Sopranos.

    I'm very scared in using a Compressor but they have a great dynamic so sometime I get some "over 0 db" recordings.

    I than use an Adobe Audition effect to restore the track.

    The question:

    is it better to have some compression (max 4-5 db) or to restore the track?

    Is there a compressor suitable for recording classical music without pumping and artifacts that does not cost more then 1000 dollars or 1200 euros?

    Thanxs

    Sergino

    Sergino

    To prevent the recording from clipping, all you have to do is using enough headroom. Recording in 24-bit, that would be -6.0 dB peak maximum.

    Using a compressor in the recording chain destroys the natural dynamics once and for all. The other thing you are asking is restauration; that's something done with historical recording, and not a regular proceeding for a new recording of today.
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
    last edited
    last edited

    @Angelo Clematide said:


    To prevent the recording from clipping, all you have to do is using enough headroom. Recording in 24-bit, that would be -6.0 dB peak maximum.

    Using a compressor in the recording chain destroys the natural dynamics once and for all. The other thing you are asking is restauration; that's something done with historical recording, and not a regular proceeding for a new recording of today.

     

    Angelo

    As usual your advice is a good one - in theory. Of coarse you will get a very high dynamic range.

    16 Bit            65'536 steps of dynamic resolution (CD)

    24 Bit     16'777'216 steps of dynamic resolution (Samples of VI)

    But the result is not what we are used to get compared with other recordings with soloists on CDs.

    Sergino

    Combine Angelo's advice and mine: Use a compressor and record with 24Bit.

    And - All Studio CDs with Carreras, Domingo, Pavarotti, Hendricks, Caballé, Fleming, .... are recorded with compressor - I'm sure.

    They all have "destroyed" dynamics. Exchange "destroyed" by "compressed" and it sounds not as bad as all that. [:)]

    About using a compressor

    Orchestras are recorded in a certain distance. There are lots of musicians. These two matters makes the difference to the recorded soloist. While we have a smaller dynamic range with the orchestra we have the contrary with the soloist which is recorded just in front of a micro - ?.

    If you don't use a compressor you often have the problem, that parts of the solist will be "flooded" by louder parts of the orchestra.

    I suspect that was your problem and therefore you increased the recording level which led to the overdrove signals. ???

    If you want to get a clear and always leading voice of a singer or an other solo instrument in connection with an accompaniment it is a A good advice once more: Take a compressor (1,5:1 ... 2,5:1) and with a little makeup gain (+3dB... +6dB).

    And I tell you: You are not alone with taking this effect for this (your) situation - far from it.   

    Best

    Beat Kaufmann 

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • S
    S

    Any opinion from the Vienna Gurus?

    You have recorded lot of instruments. Have you ever recorded "classical" singer?

    Maybe my bad opinion about compressors come from my old Berhinger Autocom 1200.

    The singers don't like that sound too.

    How much better may be a better compressor? How better are the ones suggested by Beat?
  • M
    M

    in 24 Bit you can safely record your singer without any dynamic processing and do whatever you want later during mixing, so-called manual compressing (riding the volume).
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
    last edited
    last edited

    @Sergino Futurino said:

    You have recorded lot of instruments. Have you ever recorded "classical" singer?

     

    Me [:)] 

    Do it in Mathis' suggested way:

    Record the singer with 24Bit. Afterwards you can use a software compressor - or not.

    Beat 

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • HolgmeisterH
    HolgmeisterH

    In the beginning, I had the same feeling, that I had to record everything "naturally" and then use effects to get the sound I was looking for.

    The problem was, that with no compression/limiter, you had to give so much headroom, that the recordings where too low in level.

    And, of course, in the very moment you just don't noticed, you had clippings, because the singer got's excited.

    (Murphy: You actually notice it when the singer is already home)

    I bought a TC PCI board and I am very happy with it. I used it now on every vocal and I spend a lot of time in setup as to get the ideal sound. I also own  the voxengo strip and it gives exquisite results, but it is a class of its own (in a good sense, where you need to get used to),

    I also record always a second track with the "natural" dynamics, in case I need some material to repair.

    The truth is inbetween. Compressors in vocals requires hours of practicing and listening time to get a grip on it. Now I wish I had money for a NEVE or something. You need to play around. Voxengo has free demos, where you can play and hear.

    Also: You can get some more magic to the recordings  if you use something like a VSS reverb (on the TC board) echo on top of the limiter/compressor. But this has to be done very careful, like salt on your diner: Just some grains, i,e milliseconds,

    Too old for Rock n Roll. Too young for 9th symphonies. Wagner Lover, IRCAM Alumni. Double Bass player starting in low Es. I am where noise is music.