All right I was ranting there. I happened to be in Rant Mode and you set me off somehow. It can't be explained. It is a simple fact of nature.

However I agree with DG about the redundancy of recording 2nd violins. With the massive numbers of samples involved, the time and money has been better spent with more multifarious articulations and ensembles. As DG also points out, phasing often does not happen with lines coming together if they are not exactly the same MIDI timing.

I have been dealing with this extensively in my demos, and find it a non-problem with the different possibilities of scoring afforded by the different ensemble sounds. However, even though you can use for example Appassionata on 1st, and Orchestral on 2nd and think you are so cool with your completely different sample sets, I predict that you will default to Appassionata on both 1st and 2nd. In fact I guarantee it. Because it makes the entire orchestra sound richer with a more espressivo 2nd violin section.


BTW what is far, far more needed than a 2nd violin section is 2-player desks and a complete second solo violin.

@Trailerman said:

I'm no bigshot on orchestral arrangements, so perhaps there's some degree of inexperience at play here, but when working with the East West Symphonic Orchestra, I found it very effective to double up certain legato passages with both 1st and 2nd Violins, when one needed a theme or top-line to come through really strongly in unison. I was just a little surprised when I couldn't do the same with the Vienna Instrument. After all, an orchestra has two violin sections and ocassionally they play the same part.

Are you sure you read all the linked threads? The pile of workarounds are for that rare "occasions" like you say, and they don't really justify the cost of having a full violin section recorded, again. If you read all threads carefully you would have come to the conclusion that layering chamber or solo strings or pitching patches aren't the only "solutions" to a very questionable "problem". I could think of at least 4 more which I and others already described in these threads. Additionally, Appassionata's would fit perfectly where a workaround could fail. If you think that's a reason not to buy VSL, fine, go elsewhere, there are plenty. The choices and possiblities given by VSL aren't the same there though, and I think that may be also *because* they went for an almost completely redundant sampling session while trying not to exceed the aimed price tag. Anyway, don't fall into the trap of thinking too theoretical, it's not a practical problem. You'd be surprised vice versa as well if you found out about EWQLSO not offering an Appassionata equivalent or not being able to do performance trills and runs. I could go on here for some time.

However, I may agree that with better expertise of VSL recordings of a new set of string ensembles would perhaps stand out over the current 1st violin. Still, as the major part of forum members I do think that a 2-player desk and a second solo violin would enhance things a lot more and another full ensemble (that could also be easily substituted by another company's) would stay third option in line only. The first two are less expensive and affordable for everyone while offering a yet unexperienced pile of possibilities, representing the best bang for the buck as they say.

On a sidenote, I will never understand why VSL wouldn't get their acts together and provided a fairly simple and effective update to sample libraries and VI's, taking the programming work away from the users, by offering the pitched patches. For the sample libraries the user could do this by himself and only time for programming it would be holding it from him, for the VI's it would be a major PITA to recalculate the BPM of a pitched track, record, pitch and then rerecord everytime you need that kind of thing, when it could be a lot easier with fairly simple programming in the first place. Maybe they will provide it someday. I already suggested that in one of the older threads, also. You already guessed how much reaction it received. Well, actually indirectly it did receive some: numerous threads addressing the same thing.

All the best,
PolarBear

Hi Polarbear

@Another User said:

If you think that's a reason not to buy VSL, fine, go elsewhere,

Did I say it was a reason not to buy VSL? I think you have misinterpreted my posts.

I must admit that I'm surprised that when one offers any kind of criticism here, or mentions a competing product, people start jumping down one's throat. Oh well, I guess that's just the way forums are. I actually think the VI is an awesome product and have said so many times, I just don't believe in spending my time on sycophantic ramblings. EWQLSO is not a patch on the VI Cube, I'll happily say that now, although it also costs infinitely less, and does have some nice touches, and a great sound for certain types of production. Please don't let's start a debate on that though - it's like comparing Apples and Oranges, and I only mentioned it in an earlier post, because I ocassionally found it helpful to use the EW Violins to double up with the VI Violins.

I'm very happy with the VSL, I just think they should have extended the offer of the Appassionata Violins to all Symphonic Cube owners, to compensate for what some (myself included) perceive as a shortfall in the basic package. Of course if people prefer to use workarounds for when they need 1st and 2nd Violins in unison, as you might, then that's fine too. The number of workarounds available does not change my opinion though.

Thanks again for your input.

Jules

Dear All,

The lack of seconds only has a measurable and obvious impact when doubling at the unison. Therefore this is pretty much the only practical use for the seconds (sampling navel-gazing aside).

If the lack of seconds really irks you, this approach is reasonable:

1sts - Standard Strings
2nds - Standard Strings
Doubling Unison - Appassionata String, possibly even layered lightly with chamber

You are sacrificing availability of the tone of the appassionata strings for the vast majority of your score for the sound of a more realistic unison (which in my opinion usually isn't a sacrifice worth making), but if you are that worried about it, this is a potential solution.

Regarding the post further up about shifting the samples of a semitone up to generate a "new" section, pitch bend is one of the controllers available for mapping (most obviously to the pitch wheel) in the VI interface as I recall. I don't really see why this isn't possible, although I haven't tried it myself.

Hope this is of help.

Kind Regards,

Nick.

@Trailerman said:

I must admit that I'm surprised that when one offers any kind of criticism here, or mentions a competing product, people start jumping down one's throat. Oh well, I guess that's just the way forums are.

The VSL one in particular.

The Appassionatas for violin unisons is much more convincing than any combination of two independent single violin sections. The cross-resonance of the added violin bodies doesn't seem to happen. So, for violin unisons the Appasionatas are a better approach than other company's two violin sections, that's what I think.

Nick, Mathis - The more I hear the Appassionata strings, the more I agree with both of you. This seems to be the solution for strong unison lines.

Nick, I'm not sure I follow the point about sacrificing the Appassionatas for the rest of the score. Is there any reason why it can't be used in combination with the Orchestral Violins (as 1st and 2nds) throughout the score, each used where they work best. I'm not hearing sufficient differences in fundamental tonal character to make this a problem, although I haven't explored in depth yet.

Thanks for your help.

Jules

Dear Jules,

I do hear the tonal difference which is why I avoid using them interchangeably on the same line - both in numbers and in style of execution. However, the credo is "if it sounds good, it is good". Don't let yourself be limited by my perceptions - mine are probably wrong anyway (or at least as right or wrong as anybody else's)!

Kind Regards,

Nick.

Thanks Nick

I suspect you just have better ears than me!

Regards

Jules

Almost certainly just bigger.

trailerman

Yeah, I'm a rambling sycophant, and proud of it. [8o|]






What's a rambling sycophant?

Hi William

How on earth could you construe that my suggestion that I don't have time for sycophantic ramblings was somehow aimed at you personally? It wasn't, nor at anybody else in particular. Jeez [8-)]

I can't help feeling you seem to be hanging out here looking for a fight, or waiting for somebody to piss you off. If I've somehow offended you, then I apologize unreservedly for whatever it is you've taken offense to.

Otherwise, if you have a problem with me or my views, can I suggest we take it off-list to avoid any more public mud-slinging? You can email me at: jb at trailermen dot com.

All the very best

Jules

@nicks@aubergine.co.uk said:

Almost certainly just bigger.

[:D] [:D]

No need to brag Nick!! [[;)]]

Regards

Jules

Gee whiz, I thought I was the main Rambling Sycophant. And you weren't even referring to me? Now I'm really depressed. [:'(]

@Another User said:

The VSL one in particular.

Trailerman, I guess you misunderstood the posts - did I jump at your gorgeous gorge? Actually you express that you feel like you've just been hit very very hard, and then you don't have any clue who that anybody might have been... I guess it wasn't me? [;)] Mhm...

Anyway - I guess there are two reason why the VSL forum may stand out over others with these issues:

1) People can't read. They can write in forums. Well the first one should say people don't want to read or read what they want. Meaning exact and meticously done descriptions are not even looked at, but the credit card is already layed down. For everything after the forum is there. This doesn't apply to all people in the world luckily.

2) By buying VSL many are thinking Premium and VIP both at once. And a few can't imagine they don't get the whole package with the biggest product in the VSL portfolio. This can't be! What a sin of VSL! It's gotta be the gods of all gods! But then again, this leads me back to 1) ... Instead of being happy with what they got for a reasonable price - think Miroslav Vitous back then!

Last but not least, the hint "go elsewhere" wasn't meant as turn-off: layering other companies samples with VSL's is a very practical way and often done successfully. It may even lead to a more realistic result at last!

The Appassionata offer you refer to was a gift to Pro Edition users, who thought they didn't get a fair deal on upgrading from the sample library product to the VI. Originally it was never planned to be officially released at all (and remain special for the upgraders), then VSL decided they could sell it after some complained there could be people who'd never get this (legally), now they see themselves confronted with the demand to give it away for zilch. Yeah, why don't you give us all the samples for free, VSL, it would be an all better world! In any case, I guess you were informed about what you bought, and the price called, and it was worth it to you. It's only men's nature to want more. [:D]

Cheers,
PolarBear

what you don't know, PolarBear, is that trailerman's purchase missed the sale offer for a few days which had opened a very good deal for upgrades to him - but i think we found a reasonable way to compensate although we don't have any *upgrade free if purchased after ...* rule
christian

Maybe this has been mentioned, so forgive me for possible redundancy.

The type of weighting for Vlns 1 and Vlns 2 desired using VSL would be to change the panning to what's called across the pond as the European seating position.

Violins 1 |Violas (left of center) | Cellos (right of center) | Violins 2 | Basses diagonally behind Cellos.

This is a very common seating arrangement and when using it, especially with Violins 1 + Violins 2 in unison, you get a much more realistic sound.

That's a good point Peter, thank you.

I tend to think of Violins2 as sitting behind Violins1, but it's possible that if instead they were properly panned to the European position, and treated with reverb accordingly, this may resolve some of the phasing issues. Probably not the way I'd choose to mix, but may be a good compromise.

Incidentally, Polarbear et. al., I'm sorry this thread seems to have provoked some hard feelings. Perhaps I was over-hasty in crticising VSL for being a little inflexible with pricing for what I consider as upgrades to the main orchestral package. I guess I'm just used to other companies pricing upgrades differently for new purchasers than for fully fledged, all singing, all dancing, fully paid-up, house remortgaged devotees of their products. I see Appassionata Strings (although I realize it's a separate product), as a kind of upgrade to the main Orchestra, and I guess I just vented my dissapointment with VSL's pricing philosophy publicly, when maybe I shouldn't have.

Anyway, it's Friday, the sun is shining, Appassionata Strings sounds great, my Logic Studio upgrade arrives today, so I'll stop complaining!

All the very best

Jules

@Another User said:

Incidentally, Polarbear et. al. [....] fully fledged, all singing, all dancing, fully paid-up, house remortgaged devotees of their products.

Is that the subtle, sophistacted, sneaky way of saying "f**k off"? I don't expect everybody to agree with me, as I do not agree with everybody's opinion all the time, and that includes questionable decisions by VSL. Just putting my critics as loud as others expressing their opinion. We should not forget that the starting point of this discussion was a complaint about a non-existant discount on an non-existant "upgrade" path. I'm still wondering which company would offer that? There's nothing wrong in asking for it, but one has to be aware that the kind of answer you receive on that might not be what you're looking for.

But maybe VSL will recalculate their plans and do such a thing, as long as enough people are asking for it, so you got some chances there, who knows? Besides that, I'll give you the same hint as I already gave evanevans a few years ago. If you are so convinced this will be a no-brainer for many, lay down the cash in front to VSL for all the costs of recording, editing and publishing, and wait on the revenue to come back and make some extra cash when it is making its impact on the market boldly.

All the very very best my dear,
PolarBear

On a sidenote and slightly OT: Does it anything mean it to you that this thread is neither closed nor deleted/made invisible yet even with all the rambling going on in it? You should examine other companies forum about that...

Hi Polarbear

@Trailerman said:

Incidentally, Polarbear et. al. [....] fully fledged, all singing, all dancing, fully paid-up, house remortgaged devotees of their products.

Is that the subtle, sophistacted, sneaky way of saying "f**k off"?

No, it's the unsubtle, unsophisticated, unsneaky way of saying exactly what it said, or in other words "people who have already invested in the companies main bundle of products". Nothing more, nothing less. How on earth you could interpret my post the way you did is truly remarkable.

Is there some kind of twisted game on the VSL forums, where people deliberately try and find ways of being offended by other people's posts? Or is this some kind of bizarre initiation ceremony for newbies.

All the best

Jules