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  4. So I asked about Second Violins ....

  • So I asked about Second Violins ....

    T
    T
    I know, I know, the whole Second Violins debate has probably been done to death on these forums, but as a relatively new Symphonic Cube owner (plus Extended Editions, plus various VI II instruments), perhaps you'll humour me ...

    I recently discovered that when I tried to program large-sounding unison violin lines, I couldn't get the 'power' I was looking for from the existing violin articulations. The main reason was that I couldn't use the same articulations for both 1st and 2nd violin parts, as this introduced phasing, becasue there are no actual Second Violins in the VI Cube. So I raised the issue with VSL via email.

    Their response was that the scenario I described was exactly what Appassionata Strings were intended for.

    I know it's perhaps considered bad form to complain publicy, but I have a small moral issue with spending $10,000 of my hard-earned on the ultimate orchestral library, only to discover that in order to have fully flexible 1st and 2nd Violin sections available, I have to spend another $1,200 on the Appassionata Strings. Perhaps I'm being unreasonable.

    I also asked VSL if, given this scenario, there might be a small discount available to users who have bought the full Symphonic Cube, perhaps to demonstrate some minor appreciation of the level of investment made (buying this library was a huge deal financially for me), and the fact that no Second Violins are included. I was given a pretty unconvincing argument about a "no-discount" policy, and when I pursued the issue, stopped receiving responses.

    I have now bought Appassionata Strings, and am about to purchase the Extended Version, as it seems I have little choice, but the purchase was made somewhat begrudgingly.

    I originally had no intention of publicly airing my grievances, and am still very much a fan of these great products. I hope it's fair game for users to post when they feel things might be done differently, (perhaps better), as well as to praise the library's undoubted achievements. I have to admit that my enthusiasm for the whole VSL concept has been somewhat sapped, and I'm left with a rather bitter taste in my mouth. I can't help feeling that a little more understanding on the part of the developer might have resulted in a very different outcome.

    Thanks for reading and my apologies for the public gripe.

    Jules
  • M
    M
    By the way, you probaly need only to buy the extended violins, not the Extension for the whole Appasionatas, right?

    Other than that: welcome to the idiosynchratic world of VSL. This discussion about 2nd violins is active since the beginning of VSL time.

    I use only Special edition and since there are no legato Appasionatas and I don't particular like the sound of the Appasionatas I assign the Appasionata violins to Violins 1 and legato violins to Violins 2. This is enough for me at the moment to create a convincing violins unison.
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    just to mention it: extended instruments would be available only for symphonic cube collections - appass is from ViennaInstruments II where collections don't have this type of license.
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • T
    T
    Sorry Christian, I don't understand your comment above.

    I just bought Appassionata Strings and also just bought the Extended Instrument for Appassionata Strings from your website, so I don't quite understand what you mean.

    Thanks

    Jules
  • T
    T
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    Hi Mathis

    @Another User said:

    Other than that: welcome to the idiosynchratic world of VSL. This discussion about 2nd violins is active since the beginning of VSL time.

    I use only Special edition and since there are no legato Appasionatas and I don't particular like the sound of the Appasionatas I assign the Appasionata violins to Violins 1 and legato violins to Violins 2. This is enough for me at the moment to create a convincing violins unison.


    Just so I'm clear, you use Special Edition strings as one section, and Appassionata as the other section? If I understand correctly, I'll be doing the same, but with the Symphonic Cube strings instead of your SE strings.

    Aside from my mild discontentment with VSL's policy towards Symphonic Cube users requiring two separate Violin section, I thought I had understood the technical make-up of the libraries - now I'm not so sure.

    Jules
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    apologies if this was not clear enough ... mathis suggested you would probably need only appass violins extended and i wanted just to point out for appassionata there is only the complete extended _library_ available (violins, violas, celli, double bass) and not the extended content for one single _instrument_ only (like it would be possible eg. for chamber strings)
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • T
    T
    No worries Christian - all clear now.

    Regards

    Jules
  • L
    L
    Wouldn't it be possible to just use the same strings two times but one time just a half tone pitched up (and of course then transposed one half tone down) ?

    I think only a half tone wouldn't cost too much sound-quality-wise and that way you could just use the same library for two sections without getting any phasing-problems.
  • T
    T
    I'm sure that's possible LazyPeon. Whether it should really be necessary is a different matter.

    I've used the violins from East West's QL Platinum XP library so far, but I don't think that should be necessary either.

    Jules
  • W
    W
    I do not like the insipid whining tone of this thread.

    First of all the orchestral strings can be used for first and second violins, just not for 1st and 2nd that come together on a single line. So it is not that big a deal. Unless you are idiotic enough to write the same notes for first and second constantly. Do you do that? If you do, you deserve to have all your samples taken away and should be in solitary confinement at Alcatraz for a month.

    Secondly, you could use chamber strings on second. if that is not acceptable because you are a twit, you could do what the whole point of Appassionata was - to add even more sounds to the huge, existing library of string sounds. Now you have three different ensembles, totally different samples. Appassionata should be used for first violins anyway, since they are the best sampled violins in existence and anyone who does not have them is a fool.

    What you want is total perfection, instantly. You are NOT going to get it in this universe. So stop snivelling about it. And BTW I am so sorry you spent some money. Do you have any idea of how much money I have spent on equipment and samples? And am I here writing posts whining like yours about it? NO! I may be spiralling downqard into debt, misery and ultimate destruction, but am I whining like you? NO! Don't come to me with these stories! [8o|]
  • R
    R
    Hey William,

    Whining or ranting, what's to choose?
  • W
    W
    Ranting, of course. I am surprised you ask.
  • W
    W
    BTW I have no respect for people who are too cowardly to rant. Come on!! I am waiting for you cowards. Try me.

    Though I have complete respect for those who go ballistic. Angelo? Any comments?

    The worst thing - as Orson Welles put it - is indifference.
  • B
    B
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    @William said:


    The worst thing - as Orson Welles put it - is indifference.


    So is tact. [*-)]
  • W
    W
    Tact?

    What's that? Ask Bernard Herrmann.

    You would be pulling back a stump, sucker.

    You want tact? Go to Sesame Street. But don't come whining to me.
  • W
    W
    Come on!

    I'm waiting! I want some tact. I so need it. Because I am oh so sensitive, and get so upset by all those mean people out there. You are so mean, and I just wish you could be... sniff... a little more... sniff... tactful... [:'(]

    Just like all the people you will meet, -you precious little tact-desiring people - in your future careers...

    Can you say "Rip Me A New Asshole?" [6]
  • P
    P
    Just feeding some more solutions in here that were already discussed with older VSL versions and are still a possible solution to new ones. Just take a look at this thread and the all the other threads I linked there in my post so you can some more impressions about possible solutions:
    http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=4602

    The only thing that could be added here, that the new VSL VI's don't allow the user easily to adjust sample pitch like in a sampler (or do they? I actually don't know but I would be surprised if they do). Meaning to involve program re-programming once for samplers (pitch everything up or down and fill in the holes with a stretched version of the lowest/highest sample). So the approach with doubling a line with a wholetone higher pitched variant of the same sample set would not apply so easily with the VIs, but you could recaculate the BPM of the piece for the piece to be recorded a wholetone deeper or higher, and then pitch it back the wholetone to the desired pitch in your audio editor. For everything else I strongly recommend reading the threads and trying to understand the reasoning of both sides.

    All the best,
    PolarBear
  • T
    T
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    @William said:

    I do not like the insipid whining tone of this thread.

    First of all the orchestral strings can be used for first and second violins, just not for 1st and 2nd that come together on a single line. So it is not that big a deal. Unless you are idiotic enough to write the same notes for first and second constantly. Do you do that? If you do, you deserve to have all your samples taken away and should be in solitary confinement at Alcatraz for a month.

    Secondly, you could use chamber strings on second. if that is not acceptable because you are a twit, you could do what the whole point of Appassionata was - to add even more sounds to the huge, existing library of string sounds. Now you have three different ensembles, totally different samples. Appassionata should be used for first violins anyway, since they are the best sampled violins in existence and anyone who does not have them is a fool.

    What you want is total perfection, instantly. You are NOT going to get it in this universe. So stop snivelling about it. And BTW I am so sorry you spent some money. Do you have any idea of how much money I have spent on equipment and samples? And am I here writing posts whining like yours about it? NO! I may be spiralling downqard into debt, misery and ultimate destruction, but am I whining like you? NO! Don't come to me with these stories! [8o|]


    Nice attitude William. I'm glad we have a self proclaimed dictator of appropriate posts on the forum.

    Clearly you're from the ranting school of posting, which I have no problem with, although your anger surprises me a little. What you declare is insipid and whining , others might find tactful and polite. If you can't deal with that, perhaps best to stay out of other people's threads.

    I don't expect perfection. But I do expect to be given the right to complain when I believe something is not done right. How I complain, is my perogative, not yours.

    I hope that's direct enough for you

    Jules
  • T
    T
    Hi Polarbear.

    Many thanks for the response.

    You're right, there are workarounds to the lack of Second Violins, and I have searched the forums and tried some of them. The Chamber Strings section I personally don't find quite right in an orchestral context, although I have used it, and it's certainly better than nothing. I haven't tried pitching other sections up or down and retuning, and don't even know if this is possible with the VI Player.

    I only installed the Appassionata Strings yesterday, and I'm very much hoping that these are the solution for big unison lines and will make other workarounds unnecessary. The good people at VSL have told me that they were recorded for exactly this purpose.

    In case I've been misunderstood, my original point is that, given that people are looking for workarounds for Second Violins, that seems to suggest, there's a shortfall in the Symphonic Cube. If that's accepted, it might have been nice if Symphonic Cube owners were offered some kind of incentive to purchase this upgrade and complete the orchestra.

    Thanks again for your help Polarbear.

    Jules
  • D
    D
    I really don't want 2nd Violins for various reasons:

    1) The cost of duplicating the recordings (passed on to the customer).
    2) The extra disc space that it would all take.
    3) A gazillion more articulations to hunt through.

    However, I would imagine that a 2nd Violin of the Solo Strings could be very handy for some people. I would certainly like more "2nds" for some Woodwind and Brass instruments. Orchestral violins though is unnecessary, because there are so many layering possibilities and articulations that avoiding phasing is easy, without going to any trouble with pitch shifting.

    DG