Recording Wishlist

[Holgmeister]

Given the coming VI , what would be a perfect recording solution with at least 32 tracks?
I thought that ProTools would be the choice, but there seems to be a lot of different opinions.
I would like to stay as long as possible in the digital realm and do as less D/A conversions as possible.
Anyone has a good setup already in place?

[Martin Bayless]

if you're talking about keeping everything in midi until bouncing at the last minute, then any one of the sequencers on the market may offer more features that speak to your working method. we use digital performer and logic at our studio, and there are some windows based ones to if you're on that platform.

[DG]

@Holgmeister said:

Given the coming VI , what would be a perfect recording solution with at least 32 tracks?
I thought that ProTools would be the choice, but there seems to be a lot of different opinions.
I would like to stay as long as possible in the digital realm and do as less D/A conversions as possible.
Anyone has a good setup already in place?

When you mention ProTools you have to be very careful which version you are talking about. Most of the cheaper versions have severe track limitations, and if you are using stereo tracks you could end up with only 16 tracks to play with...!

Also, I think that the sequencer part of PT is not really up to any one of the other "brand name" sequencers, so you might like to check some of the others out. The suggestions will depend on whether you prefer PC or Mac, as I think that currently the only top grade cross-platform sequencer/audio application is Cubase/Nuendo.

DG

[Holgmeister]

I don't refer to sequencers, since this is covered for me by Overture 4.
No, I mean recording the actual sound:
VI will produce audio output: Right now, I run sampler output through an 8 channel soundcard to the external 16 track HDRecorder (Roland VS1680) . But there must be a better way, like recording digital to digital, without D/A/D conversion.

I was wondering, with all the references to MIR: I run the Ove4 score into the VI engine/sampler, run the output through MIR (inside the digital domain) and then the output into pro tools (again, with no soundcard inbetween) for the final mixdown to DVD/5.1 etc.

Would that be possible? Is there anything better? What hardware would that be? When I "upgrade" my studio, it should be in the professional realm, regarding the invest.

[david ender]

Sequencers like Cubase and Logic can host VST instruments, which allows you to stay in the digital realm throughout your production up to the final mix. I believe ProTools doesn't have that ability (yet?), but shouldn't it somehow be possible to export/record and audio track without leaving the computer and going through analogue equipment?

Cheers,
David
VSL manuals

[Holgmeister]

Thanks for the replies. I am propably too much "Old School Outboard" oriented than to thought about the sole VST/Sequencer Recording Domain.

My HD Recorder is an external system and so are my effects, so thats why my little world is always "converting".

When I now re-think my studio, than my question would be:

Given my new studio (hopefully)
(myMAC with Scoring) -->MOL-->(xPCs)VI --> (externalPC) MIR --> extHDRecorder

Which output would I have to use? Right now, my plan is to use an RME Firewire with 8 outs and Digital out. Would MIR use all eight of it? Would I have a plain stereo out signal? Would i have a 5.1 for DVDs as output? DolbyEncoded? Or would I do my own 5.1 mastering?

[david ender]

Sorry, I can't answer your MIR question, that's Dietz' domain.

For the soundcard outputs, that's a matter of the routing you assign. The RME soundcards are quite flexible, and sequencers nowadays have 5.1 capability, too, so you can do different mixes for different media, including "plain" stereo.

Regards,
d.

[Dietz]

@Holgmeister said:

[...]
Given my new studio (hopefully)
(myMAC with Scoring) -->MOL-->(xPCs)VI --> (externalPC) MIR --> extHDRecorder

Which output would I have to use? Right now, my plan is to use an RME Firewire with 8 outs and Digital out. Would MIR use all eight of it? Would I have a plain stereo out signal? Would i have a 5.1 for DVDs as output? DolbyEncoded? Or would I do my own 5.1 mastering?

As far as I can tell you now, the MIR will able to send its master-signal back to a DAW (Digital AudioWorkstation) as well as to a dedicated hardware-output. IOW: The setup you describe above makes sense perfectly (as one of several possibilities).

Format-wise, you will be able create anything from mono to 8 channel, including stereo and 5.1. As by now, the room-signal derived from the impulse responses will not create any LFE-information, but this _could_ be achieved from the instruments themselves. No encoding is applied to the output, what you get is linear, full-scale PCM sound! [:)]

[... please be aware that all information about the MIR I give on this forum is preliminary and _could_ still change without further notice. Thanks for your understanding.]

[Holgmeister]

@Dietz said:

IOW: The setup you describe above makes sense perfectly (as one of several possibilities).

Format-wise, you will be able create anything from mono to 8 channel, including stereo and 5.1. As by now, the room-signal derived from the impulse responses will not create any LFE-information, but this _could_ be achieved from the instruments themselves. No encoding is applied to the output, what you get is linear, full-scale PCM sound! [:)]

I appreciate your openness, where we discuss features. Things are now making much more sense for me. In the awakening of the MIR-Discussion, I started using IR in my setup and I think I begin to have an idea how to use a good balance between old school and VST.
It requires really a different skill in mastering to think in these terms. It is not so much "reverb + lim + kompr..++"" etc but more thinkin in rooms, acoustic attributes of each instruments and the right amount of realism versus keeping everything not too realistic or too digital , to keep (classical) ears pleased.
Exciting times.

(And don't forget : the second concert hall needs to be the "Grüner Hügel" in Bayreuth. I really need the IR from the sunken orchestergraben) . I volunteer to carry the mic cables, when you record btw)

Pierre Boulez elaborated recently a lot about the fact, that nobody pursuited Wagners idea of a different opera architecture further (in physical terms). He sees a lot of potential this way. Since nobody is building opera houses anymore these days, the digital realm can continue building up on these thoughts...

[Dietz]

This is an interesting topic (the one about acoustics and architecture, I mean ... [H] ...). If everything works out as I planned, you will hear quite some extraordinary places, captured in MIR-format. But it is _much_ to early to talk about that.

Re: mic-cables ... they are not the problem, believe me. Carrying the speaker with its built-to-the-purpose motorized stand is a different task, though ... [+o(] ... and all that after listening to nothing but series of sinus-sweeps for 25 hours. Tell me if I can call you ... [;)]

[Peter Roos]

Good news that you have used the sine sweep approach Dietz!

May I ask: have you used an up or down sweep?

From my IR recordings I got the impression that I should have used down sweeps, instead of up sweeps (what a jargon [;)] ).

Just curious,

[Holgmeister]

@Dietz said:

....nothing but series of sinus-sweeps for 25 hours. Tell me if I can call you ... [;)]

before succes, the gods have put the sweat... proverb&cliché, but true , i guess..

you can call me anytime, just pm ... I see what I can do.. but the thing with 25 hours sine waves......
Once I've developed a live performance on my Mac, with MAX/MSP/NATO, with b/w video and auto-generative serial music... running for hours: people called it "the suicide performance", because everybody felt the collective urge after 10 minutes to jump out the window. I actually liked it...
Must be the same kind of attachment to cool stuff, people just don't appreciate pure sounds...


Now, I can't wait for the results.....

[Holgmeister]

After thinking about some ideas around the thread, I was progressing with my experiments in my little studio and I came across another great project, that would be a perfect match of VI and MIR, given the idea of new virtual and real worlds.

One "swing of the pendula" is to create the absolut perfect realism in record, but the even more exciting backswing is to push the boundaries even further and create the other swing, the "surreal" part of the world, the physical impossible, the "Alice in Wonderland" that would push these boundaries.
Luigi Nono tried this with the "Prometeo", where there is a nice record conducted by Ingo Metzmacher. I am always intrigued by that piece, when I listen to it, but the way of recording (quality, tracking of Mics, dynamics) drives me crazy, when I listen to it with headphones. It makes me reaching for the sliders, trying pull up some more mics and urging to give it a complete different room experience.

http://d-sites.net/english/nono.htm

Of course, given the idea of distributing multiple orchestras and sections across multiple "islands" i.e. stages (in the record in a huge venetian cathedral), using additional electroacoustics for more klang, and conducting this piece AND recording it to perfection is nearly impossible in RL (real life) for just one performance.

But how about such a piece in VL (Virtual Life) . Hmm. ....... okay... now thats a thought.... project for another lifetime..


Any plan to MIR the cathedral of "San Marco of the Gabrielis" ? ....

okay... I'll stop asking now.. before I'll get carried away..

[Dietz]

Don't stop - we all learn by listening and discussing new ideas.

[magates]

performance legato whistling with vibrato - no other articulation would be needed - except portamento legato but that would be a given almost.

[Holgmeister]

@magates said:

performance legato whistling with vibrato - no other articulation would be needed - except portamento legato but that would be a given almost.

Somehow I feel like I am missing a point here...

(scratching my head) [*-)]

[DG]

@magates said:

performance legato whistling with vibrato - no other articulation would be needed - except portamento legato but that would be a given almost.

No, no, we have to have staccato and rep articulations as well. Mind you I don't know why I'm agreeing with you as I do all my own whistling [*-)]

DG

[Holgmeister]

@magates said:

performance legato whistling with vibrato - no other articulation would be needed - except portamento legato but that would be a given almost.

I reviewed my statistic database 99,9% of all music pieces in the last 3 centuries used legato - except portamento legato.
There where only three exceptions: Britney Spears, Roby Williams and Evan Evans. But he quoted to his defense "It's this stupid West Coast Hollywood Thingie"

Regards hs - former West Coast HMB resident (approx 98 miles north of evan evans, HWY 1)