I am not convinced by the 'dealer-distributor' explanation sorry..

You could set up be a 'dealer' site on your VSL site. So dealers can check what price they have to do for an earlier user.

- User gives his VSL license info.
- Dealer checks on VSL site what rate he has to make (including his commission).
- VSL site is updated about the fact that a purchase has been made for the licensee (so there is no double buying).

Everyone is happy.


I believe there are ways. I'm not buying into the fact that there aren't ways.

"Screw the clients to please the distributors" is a 'no way' for me. This is not defendable Herb.


What it really feels like to me is the following :

Ultimately VSL doesn't really want to risk a situation where many existing users might decide they don't need the extended stuff and decide to stop investing once they have the 'standard S-Cube edition'.

Obviously it's hard to make the practical consequences of such an approach fit with the "no double pay for samples" philosophy...

I would prefer honesty in a sense.
Something like : "Listen folks we have no other financial solution but to impose this to you. Otherwise we'll have to close the business".
or
" Sorry folks, investors are making us betray you. We've checked with our lawyers and we can do this to you without you being able to do anything about it. In the end you can protest as much as you want. Most of you will buy the stuff anyway because our product is brilliant".

I maybe wrong, but this is what it really feels like.
It doesn't feel like you really tried to find a fair solution for early users.

It's all business in the end. Nothing new...

@herb said:

New customer
€345 + €445 = €790 full price

Horizon Solo Strings owner gets a discount of €415, that means
€345 + €30 = €375 full price

best
Herb

Herb,

No offence, but you left out the price already payed for the owned Horizon Solo Strings. [[:P]]

Surely you mean €375 full price plus the original €445 already payed for the Horizon Solo Strings which still totals as €820, which still is more (€30 more) than what a brand new customer has to pay, no?

I know it's "only" €30, but as with all promises and/or guarantees, it's not so much the actual amount as it is a matter of important principle.

R


[*-)]:

I'd be happy to try and explain to you if I knew what it is you don't understand? [[;)]]

Or is it perhaps me wh got something completely wrong? [[:P]]

(I'm at home sick with fever so...)

let me fabulate it very simplified - most forum members expected the symphonic cube to be priced around EUR 10.000. it turned up this is approximately the price, even less: 9.200.
users who already have the pro edition (which originally was EUR 5.490) had to spend another EUR 5.410 to upgrade to the symphonic cube, if they additionally own certain libraries from the horizon series even less.
i cannot see this would be such a bad deal considering you also get a really advanced sampling engine ...
christian

btw: version X + upgrade to version Y of a product is always more expensive than instantly buying version Y ... i don't know a product or software where the opposite is the case.

@cm said:

btw: version X + upgrade to version Y of a product is always more expensive than instantly buying version Y ... i don't know a product or software where the opposite is the case.

Now you got me confused. I thought that was exactly the purpose of the VIP pricing. The guarantee you give is that one should never have to pay for the same samples twice.

I'm not talking about the opposite, I'm saying that according to your own VIP guarantee, buying X + upgradde to version Y should not be more expensive than instantly buying version Y.

Not if you already own Z which contains material also included in X. [[;)]]

That's the whole point, it should not be more expensive, because that's what you guarantee in your VIP, isn't it?

R

@cm said:

btw: version X + upgrade to version Y of a product is always more expensive than instantly buying version Y ... i don't know a product or software where the opposite is the case.

With all due respect, but almost no one promise that you'd never pay twice for the sample - except VSL with the VIP-program. The VIP promise to customers is the major discussion point here.

After a few of Herb's posts it isn't clear to me how much/if the VI std ver include new content compared to the Pro/Hor versions.

I haven't made up my mind yet about the pricing structure. Perhaps further clarifications will sort it all out, in addition to some extra fringies for us oldies, no? [H]

Cheers,

Chris

@Rodney_G said:

I'm not talking about the opposite, I'm saying that according to your own VIP guarantee, buying X + upgradde to version Y should not be more expensive than instantly buying version Y.

Not if you already own Z which contains material also included in X. [[;)]]

That's the whole point, it should not be more expensive, because that's what you guarantee in your VIP, isn't it?

R

Wait a minute; so if I buy the GS version of Epic Horns then I decide to get the K2 version you think that is should be free?

DG

@DG said:

Wait a minute; so if I buy the GS version of Epic Horns then I decide to get the K2 version you think that is should be free?

What on earth are you talking about?

You seem to be set on finding funny non-logical quirks to all reasoning. Of course what you describe is a completely different matter. I'm talking about the VIP pricing guarantee which states that you shouldn't have to pay for the same samples twice. I.e. upgrading from one level of a product to the next.

Your talking about a platform switch which is a completely different matter.

I'm the one home with fever, yet you seem to be even more delirious. [:P]

No offence, but if you can't stick with the simplest thread of reasoning, don't get into it. You just confuse us other delirious people. [H]

R

@DG said:

Wait a minute; so if I buy the GS version of Epic Horns then I decide to get the K2 version you think that is should be free?

What on earth are you talking about?

You seem to be set on finding funny non-logical quirks to all reasoning. Of course what you describe is a completely different matter. I'm talking about the VIP pricing guarantee which states that you shouldn't have to pay for the same samples twice. I.e. upgrading from one level of a product to the next.

Your talking about a platform switch which is a completely different matter.

I'm the one home with fever, yet you seem to be even more delirious. [:P]

No offence, but if you can't stick with the simplest thread of reasoning, don't get into it. You just confuse us other delirious people. [H]

R

So you think that VI is not a different platform?: What else would you call it when the sample player is different [8-)] Maybe you should wait until you are well again before you involve yourself in grown-up discussions [:)]

DG

CM,
with all my respect,

the "bad deal" is that you are forcing us to the extended versions, while the new user has the choice not to go the extended version way.

Are you really saying you don't understand why we have a problem with that?

You realise this is the main issue don't you?

That's what you really need to answer.

I hope that you aren't going to answer by saying :" you don't have to buy the S-cube it if you don't want to"..

Charl

Well, i'll be getting VI regardless.

But my main problem is simply that old customers end up paying more than new customers. If anything it should be the other way around - or atleast be the same.

@cm said:

btw: version X + upgrade to version Y of a product is always more expensive than instantly buying version Y ... i don't know a product or software where the opposite is the case.

With all due respect, but almost no one promise that you'd never pay twice for the sample - except VSL with the VIP-program. The VIP promise to customers is the major discussion point here.

After a few of Herb's posts it isn't clear to me how much/if the VI std ver include new content compared to the Pro/Hor versions.

I haven't made up my mind yet about the pricing structure. Perhaps further clarifications will sort it all out, in addition to some extra fringies for us oldies, no? [H]

Bottom line and this might seem a bit harsh but IMO it's the way it is:

VSL has given a clearly stated guarantee that no customer of theirs should ever have to pay for the same samples twice.

This means, that if a customer upgrades from X to Y it should be no more expenisve than buying X + Y at once as a new customer. In other words, the old customer should get X subtracted from Y and the sum should be exactly the same as the new customer buying the whole thing at once.

If this is not the case, then the old customer has clearly payed for the same sample(s) more than once (be it all of them or just some of them) which in turn is a breach of the guarantee.

R

@DG said:

So you think that VI is not a different platform?: What else would you call it when the sample player is different [8-)] Maybe you should wait until you are well again before you involve yourself in grown-up discussions [:)]

It's ok, I love you too. [[:D]]

Lets follow up on your fantastic logical reasoning...if it's a side licence then how come it's not available as such for a side licence upgrade fee?

I agree with you that perhaps this would actually be the best way to view these new products, as side licences.

But, the problem is, VSL apparently hasn't viewed it as a side licence to the original products, but rather as a new product line to a degree containing the same materials (much as Solo Strings is vailable both as a Horizon package and some of it is available in the Pro Edition).

So, when viewing the product in this light (for example as Pro Edition Solo Strings is to Horizon Solo Strings), then you clearly get a situation of two different products but with some mutual content...i.e. not a side licence.

So the VIP guarantee still applies, which means that having bought X earlier and buying Y now, should amount to the same total as buying X + Y now.

Good idea about VI being a side licence, but as VSL obviously doesn't see it as that...so.

But hey, no problem...I stilllove you! [[:D]]

R

@cm said:

let me fabulate it very simplified - most forum members expected the symphonic cube to be priced around EUR 10.000. it turned up this is approximately the price, even less: 9.200.
users who already own the pro edition (which originally was EUR 5.490) had to spend another EUR 5.410 to upgrade to the symphonic cube, if they additionally own certain libraries from the horizon series even less.
i cannot see this would be such a bad deal considering you also get a really advanced sampling engine ...
christian

btw: version X + upgrade to version Y of a product is always more expensive than instantly buying version Y ... i don't know a product or software where the opposite is the case.

From VSL Website:

First Edition €3,400
VIP Pro Edition €2,085
Total cost €5,485
Pro Edition New buyer cost €5,490

From this example it cleary shows that the VIP upgrading has not in the past cost more than if you only bought the newest library.

If this commitment was maintained it should be:

Pro Edition €5,490
VIP Symphonic Cube (extended) € 3,710
Total cost €9,200
Symphonic Cube (extended) New buyer cost €9,200

I would guess this would be most VSL owners understanding of maintaining the much quoted upgrade price promise.

Julian

The difference is, that here we have a software developement, further every sample had to be mapped once again, a lot of samples were reedited, running through several controlling instances, and so on.
So we invested a lot of time and manpower into each sample, also into those that are contained in current products, which has been considered in the price calculation.
The First to Pro Edition expansion was more or less a sample add on.

best
Herb

Herb,
We understand the massive effort the VI took.
We fully appreciate the levels of genius VSL exemplifies.

We, your early adopters, your first evangelists, those of us who bought you big packages early .... which gave you the cash flow to grow VSL and create the VI ...

May I humbly suggest it is you who is failing to fully appreciate your first, best, most loyal users.

We bought the FULL 1st edition.
We VIP'd to the FULL Pro Edition. ( I actually have it in both giga and EXS!!)
We bought Chamber strings - french oboe - epic horns etc.

And many of us find that for the first time we come out behind a new buyer under your current VIP system.

Any way I look at it - your early VIP promise is not being honored.

Surely the VSL team can help us all work through this. Why to take my example (selfish I know) but to me it seems a sensible route, can we not take the price of our previous purchases into consideration - especially as long standing VSLers get screwed by the holiday discounts.

So to illustrate:

VI Symphonic Cube is + £6137

- PRO Edition £3660*
- Chamber Strings £544
- Epic Horns £237

* (I actually bought the 1st Ed and upgraded - but to keep it simple)

Would give a total upgrade price of £1696 - which to be fair I wouldn't mind paying.

Seems sensible to me [;)]

Herb, Ed is right. People that own Pro edition should be given sidegrade prices to the new VI format standard edition. It's the extended content that should require additional investment.

Your generous discounts on extended content are appreciated, but they fail to even out the situation. There are people who just want to change format to VI, and they'd be crazy to pay what you are asking for the standard edition. Things are priced backwards just to please your retailers [[;)]] Believe me, you will not lose your retailers just because you have a pricing scheme. All you need is a simple system whereby your retailers can check what products a buyer already has.

In any case, what is more important--to give retailers comfortable packages to sell, or to be fair to existing customers? Where do VSL's loyalties lie--the long-term costomer, or the retailer?

I think also the whole retail thing is nonsense anyway. When i upgraded to the ProEd from the 1st it was all handled by Time+Space (the UK Distributer) anyway, they received an email from the VSL website - surely the same thing can happen with VI?

I also can see a load of copies appearing on eBAY by disgruntled long time VSLers trying to recoup some investment on their ProEDs if things don't improve...

@timkiel said:

Surely the VSL team can help us all work through this. Why to take my example (selfish I know) but to me it seems a sensible route, can we not take the price of our previous purchases into consideration - especially as long standing VSLers get screwed by the holiday discounts.

So to illustrate:

VI Symphonic Cube is + £6137

- PRO Edition £3660*
- Chamber Strings £544
- Epic Horns £237

* (I actually bought the 1st Ed and upgraded - but to keep it simple)

Would give a total upgrade price of £1696 - which to be fair I wouldn't mind paying.

Seems sensible to me [;)]

This seems reasonable. I have almost the same set (minus Chamber Strings). I'd be happy to pay something like that for the Cube and something extra for the software development.

24-bit samples (if they're more or less the same than old 16-bit) do not justify the current pricing policy. VSL team must have recorded the samples in 24-bit in the first place, so it's not an extra cost to them either, apart from mapping which must be something you should have some tools developed for.

Pro Edition was an expensive package and I'd hate to pay so much extra for VI Standard edition just to see that I'm using the same samples.

New streaming plug-in is nice in the paper but it's a new software in its infancy and will most likely go through many stages before it is actually usable. I've bought so many 1st generation versions of new software just to realize that I'm actually just a beta tester. Thought the plug-in seems interesting I fear that I will be beta testing a lot and cursing even more when I can't get the job done.

I pray that Herb will consider this pricing policy again and give us the real VIP-prices once promised.

Stakula

I think many good points have been made in the previous posts. Actually, it did not occure to me (must be my fever) until DG mentioned it that this perhaps actually is more of a platform issue.

Like others have said, many already having the product just want switch to the VI version of it...so why not view it as a side licence? Obviously side licences has been implemented for some time no so there can be no problem from a retailer point of view?

Also, some Horizon products relate pretty directly to their VI counterpart. For example if one owns Horizon Solo Strings (yeah I know, I've used it as an example umpteen times, sorry) then perhaps one could upgrade via a side licence to the standard VI version?

After that, the upgrade path could perhaps be the same for all standard VI Solo String users to the extended one?

Perhaps this could work for other products as well, i.e. first a "side licence" just to bring you in on the other platform of the Standard version VI, and from there on up its the same upgrade towards Extended for old and new customers alike?

Please take into consideration that I'm running a fever. I expect to login tomorrow and find that all of my posts were complete rubbish. What can I say? I was bored today and the subject is dear to me.

R