Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

182,911 users have contributed to 42,263 threads and 254,948 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 2 new thread(s), 7 new post(s) and 49 new user(s).

  • Alex,

    I understand what your're saying. I've put a link on my previous post ( http://www.rpmusic.com/DR.html ) of a rough excerpt (no FX's) that I'm scoring for an episodic that I do for PBS. This is a chase scene and yes I'm sure by European standards that this would be considered that "wall of sound" (though I'm not quite sure our definitions would be quite the same) but to be able to get that "brassy" sound in the midst of musical "controlled chaos" seems to be a bit of a challenge. That's why I used the KAB library as an addition. I don't think it really has to do with thinning the orchestrations (as I stated before, I think our definitions of "wall" are probably respectivly different) as before VSL when scoring with live orchestra I never had this problem.

    But if you or anyone has a solution to getting this sound with VSL. I'm always open to suggestions!

    I really do appreciate the responses...this is the only way we improve when we live in a day to day studio vacume!

  • A tip:
    In the Pro edition you'll find for the solo trumpet a 5th velocity (ff) excluxively in the "KEYSWITCH VELOCITY" patches (all other patches do have only 4 layers)
    So you can trigger the ff using keyswitch E1

    In detail:
    LONG NOTES
    TrC_oV_nA_sus_pp-ff

    SHORT NOTES
    TrC_stac_pp-ff;
    TrC_oV_nA_0'3s_pp-ff;
    TrC_oV_nA_0'5s_pp-ff

    best
    Herb

  • Thanks Herb,

    I certainly give that a try! I'm open to suggestion!

  • Herb,

    Someday someone will write great songs about you! That did the trick!!! I don't know why I didn't see these before?

    They are "big and fat!" Just what I was looking for!!!!

    I thank you and the world of animation scoring thanks you!

  • Rp,
    I'm not going to insult you by suggesting ways of orchestrating for punchy brass, but simply offer the following based on my own experience, and observations gained from study.
    You've raised a good point and as there are those who may read this starting out on their musical journey, who may wonder how they can achieve a punchy sound with VSL without having everything playing at once.
    The biggest impact from brass comes with unison writing for instruments of the same type, then octaves, then in the trumpets with close three part in the upper part of the treble clef with the lead trumpet sitting on or near the top line.
    Trombones are well suited to stronger dynamics near the G in the top of the bass clef. That's the 'meaty' part of a tenor trombone sound, and with the bass trombone in his favourite place doubled an octave lower, makes for a strong base for the trumpets to sit on.
    Then articulation makes a difference too. Trumpets in unison playing detached staccato notes at forte or above will cut through almost anything, with maybe the exception of the piccolo in its upper register. The thicker the brass section orchestation, the less defined it is, as each instrument effectively cancels the other, particular with the horns included.
    So much music today is written for stopped horns, that i wonder if they feel they're only being appreciated for the crackling noise they make rather than all their musical skills! Fanfare statements written near the G low in the Treble clef give horn players a chance to make a significant noise without losing tone, or having a hernia!
    As I said, i'm writing this not to be disrespectful in any way, but with a view to others who may be starting out, and will read this thread with a small library of experience rather than a large one. And for those who are starting out in the wonderful world of orchestration, the following tip will be useful. When writing for a particular instrument sound at a loud volume, thin the orchestation 'around' the instrument a little. E.g. When writing a trumpet line about an octave above middle C, it would be self defeating to have the violins and W/W playing long sustained notes in the same pitch.
    General rule is question and answer.
    The trumpet plays the question, and the orchestra answers. If the trumpet section has 'fanfare' type lines, give them the room to be heard, and don't muffle them with long and sustained tremolos in the same pitch or place. (One cancels out the other.) To create a 'busy sound' that the brass can compliment with sharp attacks, remember the important role of Rhythm. (Examples can be found in Beethoven, Shostakovich, Saint-Saens organ symphony 2nd movement etc.) two alternating Rhythms alternately scored between small groups of instruments playing 'stridently' can create far more chaos, than a never ending stream of loud percussive effects, or endless scalic string runs, which become dull to the ear and possibly irritating, in a very short time.
    If you want a sound colour to be heard, and as brass are far more effective and 'punchy' at musical statements than long sustained dynamically strong notes, here's a tip.
    Imagine you've tipped a bag of marbles onto a table. They are all close together, and although there may be one or two that by variation of colour, may stand out a little, the general impression is one of 'mass'. Pick one marble in the middle that represents your chosen featured instrument, and gently move the others a little further away from it, until it stands apart from the others. In this simple analogy, use the sinlge marble as your statement instrument (be it brass or something else). The rest of the marbles represent your orchestra, giving the statement instrument 'room to move.' The rest of the marbles can be expressed in harmony, counter melody, Rhythm or a combination. As long as the lone instrument has a little space to work with, he will be heard clearly.

    Hope this helps those who are starting out, and remember it's important not to lose your marbles!

    Regards,

    Alex.

  • If you're using the performance legato trumpet(s), I've found you can get some extra brightness and blare using the 'Filter Control' patches and opening up the mod wheel. They're the ones with 'f+fiter' at the end of the their patch names.

    By the way, RP is a good friend of mine. The orchestration tips are great for those starting out...or as a good reminder. But trust me, he's no beginner.

    Fred Story

  • Fred,
    Guess i'll have to trust you then!
    I'm not implying at all rp is a beginner, anymore than i would 'look down' on anyone who was starting out, or asked musical questions that may seem simple. We all did that, and as you wrote, the tips are a useful reminder for the experienced as well as beginners (me included). There are times even now when i write something, and some else asks if that's what i am really trying to do. The 'wake up' call i get, and the consequent re examination has, more than once alerted me to a potential problem, or made me think again, and consider an alternative more objectively. I don't second guess, but i do appreciate an alternate POV may be valid. And as so much time on this site has been devoted to film and that 'sound', discussion of orchestration, methods, and alternatives can surely only be a good thing.

    Regards,

    Alex.

  • you'll notice i said LA legit (not hollywood). I was careful to phrase it that way.

  • Alex,

    I guess the intent of my thread has been slightly misinterpreted. I was merely looking for a timbre instead of orchestration and arrangement style and technique. It's not so much the use of "colour", "instrument range and combinations" or other rudimentary orchestration scenarios, but more of what I call "that sound." The same sound I get when I record with a live orchestra and want to "dig" into the brass section. And yes it is that "LA Hollywood sound". Love 'em or hate 'em, LA players are the best at what they do and I loved it the first time that I recorded them there and do everytime since then (budget permitting). Now fortunately Herb turned me on to a Velocity ff Tpt patch that I had over looked and as it turns out, it's exactly what the Dr. ordered! Big and fat and can add the dynamic that I'm looking for when I need that timbre, or alternatively as someone jokingly put it, "need to go to 11" (very funny-Spinal Tap does live on) I'll best equate it to the difference between the 4 Horns in the Pro and the grandiose of the Epic Horns! Big difference when you're trying to get your musical point across. (Which by the way, I'm just now ordering Epic as I've had a friend of mine replace my 4 Horns in my sequence for me. When I heard the difference, all I can say... Just rediculous!)

    Don't misunderstand me-I do appreciate the advice and I know anyone who is starting their musical journey can only learn from our experiences. We are the Gatekeepers! (Okay, that was a little cheesey, but you get the idea!)

    Thanks again Alex,

  • last edited
    last edited

    @rpmusic said:

    And yes it is that "LA Hollywood sound". Love 'em or hate 'em, LA players are the best at what they do and I loved it the first time that I recorded them there and do everytime since then (budget permitting).

    Thanks again Alex,


    I remember someone asking me how to get that LA Hollywood sound, "just like Star Wars". I laughed for a looooooong time [8-)]

    DG

  • Wow! Tough room!!! I'm probably gonna get hammered for this but we're really statring to sound like musical snobs here. Let's face it, we're not practicing neurosugery. Just because someone isn't as well versed as others (obviously your more enlightend to know that it was the LSO) however, some peoples reference point isn't as elevated as others...let's not scare them off by making them feel inferior. I'm of the opinion that sometimes learning through osmosis can be just as valuable. And Alex was right when he spoke of others viewing these forums, starting their musical journey and offering them our gained knowledge.

    Usually I never get envolved in quibbling, but c'mon guys...we're better than this!! Not trying to offend anyone....just MHO.

  • Rob,
    No offence taken, and I wasn't implying a lack of expertise on your part at all.
    As for the discussion?
    I can remember many people who, in my student days, helped selflessly. I considered it an honourable attitude, and have tried to do the same in my lifetime. In a public forum, there are many who are eager and enthusastic about tips and tricks, and It seems the right thing to do, sharing knowledge without judgement or conscious status.
    I have a good sense of humour and a hide like a rhino, so I don't read things from an aggressive or defensive position.

    Good to hear you're working, and doing well!

    Regards,

    Alex
    [H]

  • Thanks Alex! Couldn't agree with you more!

  • last edited
    last edited

    @rpmusic said:

    Wow! Tough room!!! I'm probably gonna get hammered for this but we're really statring to sound like musical snobs here. Let's face it, we're not practicing neurosugery. Just because someone isn't as well versed as others (obviously your more enlightend to know that it was the LSO) however, some peoples reference point isn't as elevated as others...let's not scare them off by making them feel inferior. I'm of the opinion that sometimes learning through osmosis can be just as valuable. And Alex was right when he spoke of others viewing these forums, starting their musical journey and offering them our gained knowledge.

    Usually I never get envolved in quibbling, but c'mon guys...we're better than this!! Not trying to offend anyone....just MHO.


    No snobbery intended, just pointing out that there is no LA Hollywood sound, and that the best Trumpet players are not necessarily in LA. I also seem to remember that a British French Horn player was "imported" to play the solos in "The Perfect Storm". Let's not be snobbish and pretend that American is always best, after all most orchestration technique is based on the work of Continental European composers. [:D]

    DG

  • DG's right.
    It's why I referred to the Wall of Sound as an orchestration technique, and not a region specific genre. As for best players, this discussion could go on and on. Players are players, and regardless of country, develop their skills according to their ability, not their place of birth. As i understand it, for example, there are many who acknowledge the horn section from the LSO as the 'best' in the world, and the string sections from the Russian Phil the same, along with the Vienna Phil, with many eastern european orchestras having a strong claim to the best W/W sections. (I've just had a flashback of the Brass parts written for the music to 633 squadron. Fantastic.)
    That orchestration technique that's created the urban myth that is the 'Hollywood' or LA 'sound', is just that. A technique. (Take one Saint-Saens organ symphony second movement. Raise all dynamics one level. Add more brass players. Easy.)

    The discussion about who's the best player is irrelavent, but the technique of 'wall of sound' or 'LA' orchestration has it's roots and placement in Continental European composition. It's probably true to say it will develop further as a genre on it's own with constant reference and the PR of constant use in discussion, but i have to be frank, for me, the 'LA' or 'Hollywood' sound is an illusion and accompanying label, from those who don't understand orchestration, and just want to write 'Star Wars' music. (No offence to JW)

    Regards,

    Alex.

    I mean no offence to my american compatriots when i say this, but i have wondered before if the 'volume' generated (in general) by american musicians is a result of the strongly competitive nature of the culture, and the desire to be chosen for a seat in an ensemble over others. And the type of music seemingly preferred by film producers and audiences makes me wonder if the strong dynamics so prevalent is a reason for this.

  • Interesting.

    One of my absolute favourite composers is Sibelius. Some would say that the only horn players that can really make it sound right are Finnish players.

  • last edited
    last edited

    @PaulR said:

    Interesting.

    One of my absolute favourite composers is Sibelius. Some would say that the only horn players that can really make it sound right are Finnish players.


    I think that the way of playing for Brass and Horns differs more widely than any other orchestraral instruments, according to geography. However, as with the Viennese/French Oboe discussion it really depends on what the music is written for. Having heard the opening of Sacre (uh-oh, maybe I shouldn't call it that) played with the "French" Bassoon that it was written for, it certainly makes more sense.

    DG

  • I'm learning that I have to choose my words quite carefully on this forum so I'll end my thread with this comment. In no way did I say that LA was the best (in the world, universe etc) I just said they were the best at what "they" do. Just like the LSO is the best at what "they" do (but I will be bold and say-and please someone somewhere don't slam me for saying this-they do have the best Horn section in the world...I know I've probably ticked someone off somewhere by saying that) Vienna is the best at what they do, etc, etc, etc. I was merely defending the people that I've worked with when I felt that they were being "down played" in a couple of post. We all remember where the origins of orchestral music derived from (yes, Europe...there I said it!) and contrary to popular belief, we here in the US know that the world doesn't revolve around us. That's why when I was up to do "Bpbby Jones-Stroke of Genius" I called the LSO to find out about their recording schedule (ultimately I was bumped by James Horner-but if you gotta be bumped by someone, I guess JH is a good one to be bumped by-and please lets not go down the JH road-I know all the controversy over his plagiarizing himself and other things) But are proud of the fact that even if the "LA Hollywood Sound" has sort of become like the word "Xerox" in refering to movie music I guess there's a compliment burried in there somewhere. My comments about sbobbery had nothing to do with this issue of who's doing what but more so with disrepecting an individual' lack of knoweldge about music or where a particular score is recorded etc. That's all...I just hate to see anyone inhibited to join in these discussions for fear of ridicule because the rest of us have had the fortune of an education and professional experience. Really that's all that was floating around in this small little brain of mine. Personally I would hate it if this country were the only source for what we do...that's a rediculous thought that I doubt anyone in this county shares. Once again, we're the "Gatekeepers" no matter what continent we're perched on.

    I will say thanks for all your comments about the Tpts (which is how this whole thing got started) and thanks to Herb for getting me headed in the right direction with the right patches!

    Happy writing all and never let anyone tell you there are "too many notes!"

  • last edited
    last edited

    @rpmusic said:

    That's why when I was up to do "Bpbby Jones-Stroke of Genius" I call the LSO to find out about their recording schedule (ultimately I was bumped by James Horner-but if you gotta be bumped by someone, I guess


    I wanna see that.The guy that helped Bobby Jones design Augusta, designed my local golf course. Alastair McKenzie.

    You just can't have enough golfing movies!

    [H]

  • Rob,
    Healthy discussion and a sharing of POV in a civilised way is surely a healthy pastime. As you've discovered, there are those (me included) who offer an alternative sometimes, based on opinion and perspective. If you browse the forum, you'll find many discussions, passionate and objective, about a number of topics. The hollywood sound saga is not restricted to this thread. There have been many. And the discussions have prove fruitful for many (me included) who are open minded enough to respect and appreciate a different POV. I wn't speak for others, but I've learnt much, and filed away in the grey matter much information about a variety of musical and technical subjects.
    It would also be fair to say I'm as guilty as many others when it comes to introducing alternate discussion in threads dependant on the subject material.
    Far from being antagonistic, this thread has been a source of knowledge and reflection. Others have been far more 'enthusiastic'!
    The discussion of players and origins is one of personal preferences, and there are those (again, me included) who will question and offer something different as their personal preference.
    No one's having a go at you Rob, on the contrary, we're enjoying a conversation between peers about subjects we're amused, passionate or objective about. (Sometimes a mixture of all three)
    And importantly, to get back to the origin of the thread, we've all learnt something new about VSL Trumpet samples!

    Regards,

    Alex.

    [H]