Here's another contribution toward figuring what's involved, from looking back at some recent work.

It took me from April 19 to May 5 working nearly full time to prepare and record a 6 minute piece; also from Jun 23 to Jul 5 for an 11 minute piece. Both were already fully notated, both had an inflexible, basic midi rendition (fixed velocity level, full nominal duration, no instrument identification).

So facing an unknown piece I'd plan for a minimum of 2 weeks calendar time, 80 hours of billable time. Hard to know what to propose for an hourly rate -- in the past I've paid a teenager $10/hour to help with midi stuff, but wouldn't devote my own time for ten times that. For somebody like Jay Bacal who does very fine vsl realizations but probably doesn't make his living this way, you could try offering $30 or £20 an hour and expect to pay around $2400. (Have no idea whether he'd consider that even close to enough payment). The £500 price sounds like a definite bargain, if done by someone with experience.

The youth orchestra, with everyone playing for free, might also re-do their recording in return for a donation in the £150 range.

Lovely piece. Who is your Dad? I live in Bracknell and play loads of jazz. My surname is Whennell. Have we come across each other, perhaps?

I think £500 is a bargain, but also optimistic. Knowing how very long these things take, this will be a labour of love for someone, rather than a money earner, since I don't think you or your dad will want to pay someone making their living out of this what they would want to charge. If you can find someone who just loves to immerse themselves in this kind of thing, and has the time to do it for enjoyment, then you will have hit the jackpot.

I also think the recording is good and far better in standard than a quick mock up on a sampled orchestral library, unless serious time is put in. James Newton Howard does the most realistic sampled orchestra I have ever heard using about 30 odd Roland samplers and months of studio time. Your mp3 definitely gave me an idea of the composers intentions.

Hope you get what you are looking for.

@rawmusic said:

James Newton Howard does the most realistic sampled orchestra I have ever heard using about 30 odd Roland samplers and months of studio time.

Nah, there's better stuff on this site [H]

D

@rawmusic said:

James Newton Howard does the most realistic sampled orchestra I have ever heard using about 30 odd Roland samplers and months of studio time.

Nah, there's better stuff on this site [H]

D

And some of JNH's mocks have allegedly been regarded as suspect by some.

@rawmusic said:

James Newton Howard does the most realistic sampled orchestra I have ever heard using about 30 odd Roland samplers and months of studio time.

Nah, there's better stuff on this site [H]

D

And some of JNH's mocks have allegedly been regarded as suspect by some. What does that mean?

...and have you actually heard his mock ups, or are you basing your sweeping dismissal on other peoples' opinions? As a pro musicians, I was gobsmacked by the standard of it. There is some fantastic stuff here, but that doesn't make his work any less amazing. Considering Disney were paying him mega bucks, it had to be good. It was his work that inspired me to start turning to samplers for orchestral MIDI arrangements in the first place, having relied on dodgy sound modules up until then.

There's no time like the present to step in.
I've just been to a couple of sites and listened to a bit of JNH stuff, including the short demos for Batman Begins. Like PaulR, I've heard various reports about JNH's stuff, not always good, but not all bad either.

As an objective outsider who prefers concert symphonic stuff, I don't always have a high, or neccessarily informed opinion about film music, except for straight musicality.
So, from a musical point of view.....

His stuff sounds mainstream, and much the same as a veritable plethora of other modern film music. There's a number of threads in this forum about the direction film music tends to follow, and i'm afraid to say JNH seems to be following the rest of the herd, with nothing particularly remarkable about his stuff.
This is only my opinion, but i think DG may be right. There's good stuff on this site to challenge JNH. (Jay Bacall's Wagner, Bill Kersten's Holst for just two examples)
From an orchestration and composition perspective, well, same old stuff, cadentially speaking. (2-5-1-2-5-1- 3-6-2-5-1 etc.)
Oh yes, and the same choirs who forgot the words, and simply hum along. (Man, they get a lot of work)

Continue on please Gentlemen, this is just my two Euro's worth!

regards,

Alex.

Alex, good informed opinion. Film music is a strange creature. Even John Williams seems to write to a formula a lot of the time. I guess, there is a precedent set, and I don't suppose many mainstream directors are going to want music to challenge an audience in a movie theatre watching a mainstream movie. Some composers spring to mind like Danny Elfman, except all his stuff sounds the same, or Dave Grusin, but then again, if you don't like mainstreamy jazz, he won't be your cup of tea either. I reckon film music is both easy and hard to write (sit on the fence why don't I). I wonder if there is mileage in the "if it aint broke...." scenario, until someone comes along and says "hey man, do something different for a change".

The track I was talking about originally, was called something like, birth of an egg, or something else. In any case, this was highlighted in an interview with JNH about MIDI orchestration. I downloaded both the MIDI mp3 and orchestral mp3 (about 5 years ago I think) on a dial up connection, and at first cursed myself thinking I had waited several minutes to download the same file twice, but then realised they were different. He talked about how he adjusts volume and filter for just about every note he plays in to simulate that of a real player. Had he waited for VSL he wouldn't have needed to do half the work he did!

Anyway, my opinion was based only on recollections of his work I have heard on the telly, and that one download instance, so my view is not all that broad either!

....oh and some of the stuff on this website is truly inspiringly good.

Nat, nice piece. But - as the other already pointed out - it will be a LOT of work and questionable how much it will really improve. I understand your points about tempo though.

@rawmusic said:

...and have you actually heard his mock ups, or are you basing your sweeping dismissal on other peoples' opinions? As a pro musicians, I was gobsmacked by the standard of it. There is some fantastic stuff here, but that doesn't make his work any less amazing. Considering Disney were paying him mega bucks, it had to be good. It was his work that inspired me to start turning to samplers for orchestral MIDI arrangements in the first place, having relied on dodgy sound modules up until then.

Yes - try not to read into that post of mine - 'I think he's a poor writer' huh.

I'm talking about alleged 'mock-ups' done with samples. And I never make sweeping dismissals about anything.

That's because I've probably forgotten more about filmscoring and the history of it than you know at this point in your career. [8-)]

I stand in total respect of your views and experience. I do take exception to your utter arrogance and pig-headedness. There is no call for attitudes like yours, and your reply to my posting just confirms my impression of you. Let's try and be civil and all sing from the same hymn sheet shall we.

@rawmusic said:

...and have you actually heard his mock ups, or are you basing your sweeping dismissal on other peoples' opinions?

I would say your opening line above is fairly arrogant. Don't get arrogance mixed up with knowledge. Your knowledge thus far to me - is like a fly landing on my shoulder that is merely brushed away - no animosity - one simply just brushes it away.

There are about 5 people on this board that have opinions, that while either coinciding, or colliding with mine - I will have discussion with, regarding filmscores - you will not at this point be one them because you need to differentiate between personal taste and intellectual objectivity. This comes with time, knowledge and the ability to link images and scoring, and therefore the effectiveness of the whole.

When it comes to computer technology and stuff like that - I am at the bottom of the ladder - I have to pay people to do all that kind of thing for me. I recognise this perfectly well and the longer members of this board are well aware of that.

Don't take me on with drivel - I have to time or patience with drivel.

[quote=rawmusic]Some composers spring to mind like Danny Elfman, except all his stuff sounds the same...

You cannot be serious,surely? You think Good Will Hunting sounds like Hulk? Or Big Fish like Men In Black?Get your ears syringed,man ! Elfman is one the few contemporary composers who IS versatile,yet many people think he's all gothic romanticism,which he isn't.

just syringed my ears....EUGH!! Thanks for the tip.

You are right though. I didn't know that Elfman did Goodwill Hunting, and that is a million miles away from Simpsons and MIB. Successful comosers do make a bit of a rod for their own backs though. Like someone mentioned, JNH stuff is a lot mainstream. Danny Elfman is well known for his gothic/romantic stuff, and if you are a producer and have heard stuff by someone who does a good job in such a style, then you are going to ask them to do the same for you. He does look right for that kind of music though - kinda quirky!

I hereby publicly apologise to PaulR. I have no desire to upset people on this forum. I am enthusiastic in my profession. Noone can claim to be expert in all areas. I love my job and am good at it. I like the way, though, that PaulR knows everything about me and comments with authority about me. My knowledge of film music runs only to that which I have heard, and not that which I have written. Having had absolutely no opportunity to write to picture, although I would like to, I can not argue intellectually from a composers point of view. Personally, if I had the kind of experience PaulR obviously has, I wouldn't necessarily look quite so hard down my nose at others less capable. It is obvious we are worlds apart, and this forum does not need to read our petty word fights any more. Thus, as far as I am concerned, the air is clear, no more hard feelings, and the matter is safely in bed.

When one gets to Paul R's venerable age one can know things about a person,just by how they say something,or not. [[;)]] Gracious will he be in accepting your apology,hahahaha (in the style of Yoda).Takes some guts to apologise.

Regarding the Elfman: he really has cornered the market of music for a darkened people;he does it so well,and is one of the very few living film originals,in that he cites ,eg, Herrmann as his big influence,yet isn't overt in his borrowing from that composer.That,together with his relative lack of academic background,makes him,for me, a towering contemporary figure.It's very difficult to have your own sound,but he has in in spades.I know the orchestrator can contribute greatly to the "sound" of a composer,but the notes have to be on the page in the first place.Elfman's music can be extraordinarily complex,particularly with regard to rhythm,and that capriciousness suits the film medium very well.Respect to the man.

@strawinsky said:

I know the orchestrator can contribute greatly to the "sound" of a composer,but the notes have to be on the page in the first place. Elfman's music can be extraordinarily complex,particlarly with regard to rhythm,and that capriciousness suites the film medium very well.Respect to the man.

Interesting choice of words, notes on the page...... [:D]

DG

[[;)]]

I hate it when people apologize. Hahaha! I hate it when people cave in so rapidly without putting up a least a good argument. You didn't last very long. What's it going to be like when a piss poor director tells you ' I don't like that music you wrote for this scene - do it again'. Hahahah!

If I was upset, you would have known about it - I don't really ever get upset. Why?

Because in the end, when discussing specifically filmscores and scoring, it's really a matter of taste and unfortunately there is a blurring between taste and and what actually works. This type of discussion generally has no effect on the actual film makers because they are looking at things in an entirely different way to a musician. Therefore, it appears one can be 'looking down one's nose' as you put. And believe me, I've got a big nose.

As Stravinsky so eloquently put it, Herrmann is like God to Elfman - Herrmann is the reason Elfman got into filmscoring for a living basically. That, and the money probably. And thank goodness Elfman did, because he has shown some highly original ideas over the years - for example, some really excellent scoring in say Sleepy Hollow and many others.

A whole discussion on it's own - is when musicians seperate out a score from film - it's generally a nonsense with obviously some great exceptions, like Herrmann, Williams etc.

As Hermmann once said - 'you can write a highly technical score for a film that can be very effective - and you can write really quite bad music for a film, that can be equally as as effective'.

I watched Psycho last night - may not be the best technical music for film ever written (although close) - but in terms of it's effect on the overall film -it sets the standard that all things must be judged by.

Back to the golf.

[:D]

Tiger's not out of the woods yet...