I've just realised what it is about the Elegy that i enjoy.


Elegant simplicity.


Alex.

Good thread... couple of things:

First and foremost, as I see it now VSL and EWQL both have their good and bad points... if I had the money, I'd get both... if I had to pick only one, it would be a really hard decision... but I'd probably choose VSL.

That being said, can someone point me to a demo of VSL that just completely blows you away? When I listen to the individual instruments, they are very beautiful... but almost every full demo I've heard sounds a bit plain to my ear. [[:(]] I'm guessing it's the fake reverb...

Also, any word on when it will be in 24bit? As far as I know, Pro is still 16bit...

I am debating this whole group buy thing too... EWQL is a bit limited to say the least, even with PRO... and no performance tool, well... [[:(]] But still, the end result (their mp3's) do sound quite good (full and realistic).

[edit] I guess I could some it up by stealing Alex's wonderful post... I'm trying to choose between a dented Rolls with no paint job (and the best paint around is watercolor), or a sparkly new Ford... unless, of course, there's some demo on this site that outclasses the others I've heard...

@aristote said:

I am not a polemist [6] , but I just would like to make some remarks. (the frenchie aristote is always excused for its bad English - thank you with the Mac translator -).

I don’t like your topic because it’s not really elegant. For two reasons. First : here ou are on VSL forum. And second : imagine that you are one of the first purchasers of EW. Which would be your feeling, after having bought at the full price Platinum, you were in front of these group buy. Personnally I would not be happy ! [8o|]

I just want to tell you something.

1. If you are professional,would not be sure to make the best deal with EWQL. The quality of the demo is good but doesn’t show you the reality. For example, you never can hear correctly the strings (or some others instruments) alone…
2. Maybe, you'll have "a" large selection of instrument with your solution, but certainly not "the" largest.
3. Don't forget that the Platinum Edition doesn't contain all the ariculations you can find in VSL Pro ed.
4. Don't forget that to play with more articulations, you have to wait the upgrade Pro by EW, that costs the same price than VSL Pro ED without the Performance Tool and the fabulous tools: ALTERNATION, REPETITION and LEGATO in VSL
4. Don't forget that you can not compare the sound quality of sound beetween the Brass &WoodWinds EW and the fabulous Brass &WoodWinds VSL, specally epic horns.
5. Don't forget that the engine Kompakt and Kontakt are not the best engine for this kind of Library. I'm working with Kontakt for all except the VSL collection and I know some users, who have quickly some problem you don’t have with EXS and its tools.

It’s important that you compare what can be to compared.

6. And finally, don’t forget this : on the VSL forum you can write about EWQL, but on the EWforum, if you have the smallest problem with their collection, with all their bugs, if you want to write about VSL, it’s absolutely impossible : you will be excluded. Here, if you have the smallest problem, they do all they can do to find for you a solution.

the frenchie loves VSL is this clear [*-)]:

Hi

I am a QLSO Platinum user and I totally agree with Aristote. ( I am also French)

East/West have banned me twice from there forum because I was reporting problems.


........

The only advantage of QLSO is the "big sound" ; to get it you just need to add a "Space designer reverb"

I just got Kontakt 2 (that includes a lot of OPUS 1)

I can say now that I have regret having bought the QLSO platinum instead of the VSL ; this because not having enough money (got the QLSO PLATINUM for a very good price at 1900 Euro in December 2003).

The VSL lib that is included in Kontakt 2 sounds MUCH better; y

None of this has been my experience at all. EW has always been very responsive, and the "Platinum product is fantastic (and so is VSL which I own). The "Platinum" demos are impressive and completely different to the more intimate sound of VSL. I can't figure why VSL users have such contempt for Platinum - both are ground-breaking products, the best of their kind, but with different recording philosophies. If you prefer one, that's fine, but have some respect for others that prefer a different sound (I couldn't decide so I got both). Having both gives me options to satisfy my clients needs no matter what they want.

Personally, I think some people come here to 'settle the score' with a company, if they didn't get what they want at some point. Having many options is good, having one option is not so good. I choosed to have as much options as possible and my results proof this (personal) decision.

Stefan

@Stefan said:

...I can't figure why VSL users have such contempt for Platinum...Stefan

Well Stefan if you hang around long enough I think you'll find that's not the case and as one who frequents both forums and also has both products (Opus 1 and Gold) I see the same level of respect (which is the majority attitude) and disrespect (which is the minority attitude) on both forums for both products.

DC

I've read Stefan's most recent post on this topic carefully, and offer one or two points.

Stefan, if your experience with EW is a good one, and the product is one of many to suit your clients, it's good for you, and ultimately your choice. Your opinion is as important as anyone else's, and should be considered with an open mind.

In this 21st Century there are many companies all vying for your hard earned dollar, and occasionally, you get to benefit from a group buy, or a heavily discounted product. It's timing, and often a reflection of the current economic state of a company or business, or a drive to get more business through aggressive marketing and the resultant 'special offers.' This is the meat and potatoes of business, and ONE of a number of ways to conduct business today.
Naturally there are other ways, including developing and selling a product that is of the highest calibre, and using the value and quality to sell the product, not discounts or special deals.
This way is just as relavent, and often longer lasting.

But it's also important to respect that others don't have the same opinion, and can express their views passionately, possibly because they are frustrated with one thing or another.

There's another consideration.

I write orchestral music these days, what you 'young 'uns' call classical (!). I always did, but also paid my way in life by writing music for adverts and other things in different styles. It was bread and butter. And back then in the infant days of music technology, my fellow composers and musicians and I would swap notes, and listen to the latest 'sound' eager to try and improve our stock of available samples, and soundfonts. I would often spend hours trying to get a reel to reel to playback in exactly the same place as tracks i'd recorded on a computer or 8 track cassette recorder. (Before the days of computerised sync between r to r's and anything else)

And orchestral music, in particular, strings and woodwind were the holy grail.
If you had a good soundfont of a stringsection that didn't sound like a tin can being dragged down a blackboard, you were lucky, and the envy of others.
Samples have come a long way since then, but the discussions and passions aroused by the merits of this product versus that remain the same, and will continue in the future.
The VSL vs EW discussion is one in a long line, and the fact we have such outstanding quality available these days is a credit to those aspiring to provide us with ever better products.
I wrote my opinion, and it is only my opinion, because i'm not arrogant enough to presume to speak for others. VSL for me, and for what i want, is the better product, based on experience composing, and playing in orchestras of all sizes. It's still only my opnion. You have yours. Aristote and others have theirs too.
You have said it's your opnion that people are using this site to damn a product.
It's their choice and their experience, and just as valid.
For me, having struggled, fought and argued with my computers, sounds and equipment over many years, VSL is the closest i have heard to the sound i know and want. The intimacy of a small room is just as breathtaking as the power of a large hall, and i have to say, based on the Demos, i think VSL is capable of both.
I still have a question mark as to EW's capacity to sound right in an intimate environment, and i think their philosophy is based on a big sound, rather than a good one.

But that's just my opinion!

Regards to you all,

Alex.

Dear Cyril,

this is meant to be a friendly place of information exchange. Let´s keep it this way.

I want to put that very clear: We do not allow "criticism" that leads to drastic and unnecessary statements. Please don´t forget that you are commenting on well-designed products, that have been successful on the market for quite a few years, with lots of satisfied customers, as can be seen in this thread, too.

Cyril, I have deleted parts of your post.

Please accept this friendly warning.

Best wishes, Paul

@Paul said:

Dear Cyril,

this is meant to be a friendly place of information exchange. Let´s keep it this way.

I want to put that very clear: We do not allow "criticism" that leads to drastic and unnecessary statements. Please don´t forget that you are commenting on well-designed products, that have been successful on the market for quite a few years, with lots of satisfied customers, as can be seen in this thread, too.

Cyril, I have deleted parts of your post.

Please accept this friendly warning.

Best wishes, Paul

Dear Paul

To avoid to be a naughty boy again, can you tell me, what did chock you in my post ?
If I remember what I wrote it was only facts ; all the problems I have with QLSO Platinum

Most of the unhappy users are QLSO Platinum users that are writing full orchestra score

If you write one or 2 lines of QLSO strings you hardly have any problems
If you buy 8 PC to run the QLSO library it is the same.

But when you want to do with QLSO what you can do with VSL you have BIG problems !

While you are at it
1) I have post a question on the "VSL/Kontakt" forum and you did not answer
2) I do not receive a mail saying that I have answer to my posts

Best Regards

Cyril

@hermitage59 said:

For me, having struggled, fought and argued with my computers, sounds and equipment over many years, VSL is the closest i have heard to the sound i know and want. The intimacy of a small room is just as breathtaking as the power of a large hall, and i have to say, based on the Demos, i think VSL is capable of both.
I still have a question mark as to EW's capacity to sound right in an intimate environment, and i think their philosophy is based on a big sound, rather than a good one.

But that's just my opinion!

Regards to you all,

Alex.

Hi alex,

this is interesting as you see it from a different aspect as I do (maybe many others as well). For me the Eastwest versions sounds much more realistic for most (better say many) of mycompositions. Inf act what I hear these days in movies or other soundtracks (Did I mention Cirque de Soleil in Las Vegas with 160 Channel setup?) that needs this big sound. What means big sound? It means that you hear it as if you would sit in the audiance of a concert hall and listen to the instruments as they appear in everyones ears. The mistake I made in the past is that I have seen the instruments as individuals while sitting in front of them or playing them. This is not how you hear them if you are in a live concert. I agree that 'dry" recordered instruments makes it easier to create precise compositions. However, most of the times my results with the "big sound" is much more accurate to a real orchestra and I get a much quicker good result. But that is my opinion after doing recordings for so many years. The interesting aspect is that film music in Europe is so much more "dry" than it is on all the big Hollywood producttions. I believe that Vienne is working on the reverb to compensate that. But thats another story to discuss in a different thread. I worked already a lot with my Platinum Edition that I bought right away with the group offer and the three mic positions are phenominal!

Stefan

@Stefan said:

this is interesting as you see it from a different aspect as I do (maybe many others as well). For me the Eastwest versions sounds much more realistic for most (better say many) of mycompositions.
Stefan

Is your name Stefan Leiste?

@Another User said:

Originally posted by johnyc
With EWQLSO it is my understanding that with little effort you can get that big hollywood sound out of the box. [...]


One of the famous Urban Legends ...

My 2¢ as someone who has both libs: EWQLSO is best at rhythmic, boom boom boom stuff. It's bright, it's powerful, and it has a lot of reverb.

If you balance the levels of just the stage (Decca tree) mics, you will get reasonable results even without using the other mic positions. So in that sense I don't think it's an urban legend.

If you're into the subtleties, of course it's an urban legend.

Hey people, are we at the VSL (translation: VIENNA Symphonic Library) forum or somewhere else?

The best Library I know is by far VSL !!!
I've tried them all ... compared to the VSL, EWQLSO is a childish toy.

Just my 2 cents ...

VSL - You are simply the BEST!

@PaulR said:

Is your name Stefan Leiste?

you mean: Stefan Leiste, who's working in EASTWESTSOUNDS Company [*-)]:

It'll be so funny [:O]ops:

Finally, the moral of this thread :

The administrators of this site are really very patient and tolerant.

Three pages with speaking on EWQL.

Doug must be happy

/aristote the frenchie

Stefan,
My my, what an interesting reply you've written.

I'm not sure about this quote stuff, so i'll cut and paste your quotes, and ask you to be a little patient. (I still use a 'Quill', ink, and parchment to set out a score. Call me old fashioned.)

"Inf act what I hear these days in movies or other soundtracks (Did I mention Cirque de Soleil in Las Vegas with 160 Channel setup?) that needs this big sound."


So, you've pointed clearly in the direction of EW in relation to your compositions and your perception of what is the 'sound' of today's film and soundtrack direction.
That's as it should be, with personal preference the key factor in deciding what you want, and importantly what you want to use it for. It's obvious from the enthusiasm in your reply that a 'big sound' is one you aspire to, and EW rocks your boat. It's your choice.
It's my choice however to choose if i agree or not.

That big sound versus the European 'dry' sounds to me a little single focused. Each example you gave related to that big boom boom sound, with an almost derisory afterthought to our poor little Euro dry. And with that big booming sound of yours, much can be forgiven musically, little flaws and sometimes big ones, skillfully overwhelmed by the ringing waves of bash, bang, wallop, and endless choirs who can only hum because they've forgotten the words. It's a terrific way to hide the mistakes, and many a composer, good and bad, in the past and present, has succumbed to the temptation of noise over musicianship.

Stefan, I've played in orchestras, and sat in the audience listening on more occasions than i can remember, often as student armed with a compact score, listening to the real sounds, and countersounds, trying to understand what's happening.
And the big sounds I have as that singular definition, include Beethoven's 9th (Choral symphony), Wagner's, well, pick one, Rimsky korsakov, (who wrote a book that has become a bible for many). Did these works originate from a pre processed 'Big Sound'?
No.
They used a technique that has stood the test of time against all comers.


'I agree that 'dry" recordered instruments makes it easier to create precise compositions. However, most of the times my results with the "big sound" is much more accurate to a real orchestra and I get a much quicker good result.'

See above for why a dry sound HAS to sound superb, BEFORE any effects are applied, not the other way around.

"The interesting aspect is that film music in Europe is so much more "dry" than it is on all the big Hollywood producttions. I believe that Vienne is working on the reverb to compensate that."

I find this one a trifle arrogant. You're saying that the VSL team are actually trying to lower their exacting standards to get that big hollywood sound that you're so fond of? As if it is the Holy Grail of Sampler Technology?

(See the MIR project page for details about the finesse of spacial awareness and the perfective determination required to achieve it.)

The reverse is true. Many of the early and present sample packages used a false reverb and 'ringing sound' to try and HIDE the fact they were (and in some cases still are) sub standard.

Stefan, the big sound obviously suits you, and puts you in a wonderful emotional state. If you're getting lots of work as you say you are with your big sound, then good luck to you. If it helps you eat, i've got no problems with that.

But don't assume all of us wish to aspire to the formulaic hollywood formula, of big and loud, with crushingly boring simple chord changes 'cos that's 'What the audiences want' (according to the demographic analyst).

Nope, the few of us left (because you stated 'maybe many others as well' early in your post) who wish to resist following the rest of the sheep and write something new and interesting, use another skill which puts the ideas first, then applies the effects, IF NEEDED.

It's called Orchestration, and of all the skills needed musically it's often the most ignored, the least understood, and the most valuable skill you can develop. Freed of the safety blanket of waves of noise, that dry sound compels one, if chasing excellence and improvement in oneself, to ever more determination and creativity in the dangerous and uncertain environment of no effects.
No 'reverbial safety net', no endless droning choirs to hide the poor choice of timbre and pitch in the woodwinds, or the 'wincing jar' of ill placed brass.

I for one don't want reverb on my samples. That's my choice. I don't want cathedral sound with a one road only attitude leading straight to Hollywood.

I like writing music, and testing myself e.g. to see how thinly i can orchestrate and still get a good balanced sound.

Bang Bang Boom, with no other option, and the exclusion of all those years of hard work, and musical determination?

No thanks.

Alex.

skill a musician and composer can have. The ability to write a thinly orchestrated piece that sounds complete and well balanced with the careful use of instruments and dynamics is far more rewarding, and musically honest. You can't do this with a
package purely designed for boom, boom, boom.

If the big sound you crave with such enthusiasm is the sum total of your aspirations, that's your choice.
You also wrote 'maybe many others' in the start of your post. Any real proof of this? Or merely a little conjecture.

I think you're suggesting we consider we give up the years of hard work ,study, and bloody minded determination, chasing excellence, to take the singular one track only path to Hollywood.

The assumption all of us want to do that staggers me, and the single minded attitude you display is a direct reflection of the single track approach of the EW samples. (My opinion, and i only speak for myself, not 'many' others......maybe)
Why, some of us want to write interesting, subtle, well written and orchestrated music, and the best tool for that, in my opinion is VSL. As a sample package capable of both thin and full instrumentation, it stands alone, and ready for everything.

Based on GOOD Orchestration.

So, do i want your boom boom one track pack?

No. I like writing music.

Alex.

@Another User said:

Originally posted by johnyc
With EWQLSO it is my understanding that with little effort you can get that big hollywood sound out of the box. [...]


One of the famous Urban Legends ...

My 2¢ as someone who has both libs: EWQLSO is best at rhythmic, boom boom boom stuff. It's bright, it's powerful, and it has a lot of reverb.

If you balance the levels of just the stage (Decca tree) mics, you will get reasonable results even without using the other mic positions. So in that sense I don't think it's an urban legend.

If you're into the subtleties, of course it's an urban legend.

I wouldn't comment about other companies' products, especially ones that don't compete with ours directly. [+o(]

The point I tried to make, actually: It is an urban legend that the Vienna Symphonic Library makes it difficult to achieve that so-called Hollywood-sound (whatever that may be). - The main problem is that you can make it sound _so_ differently that the hasty listener will maybe miss those large-scale examples.

All the best,

/Dietz

@aristote said:

[...] Doug must be happy!

He's already enjoying it: -> http://office.vsl.co.at/forum14/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1680 [H]

/Dietz

Ah, I misunderstood.

No question. You can easily make VSL sound huge.

@Dietz said:

He's already enjoying it
/Dietz

He has at least elegance not to hide behind a pseudonym

/aristote the frenchie