@muzik said:

all i can say to that really is, that sucks. its the difference between buying a product when it hits the shelves and waiting some time for a price drop. now a $1000 price drop is quite extreme, so no doubt that would make original buyers mad. but thats how it is unfortunately, you never know what to expect and you just have to hope the purchase you made was a good one. I hope when i purchase VSL its the investment that will be able to last me decades. It sounds very convincing to me and i've been a musician for over 10 years. the kicker is always when that slightly better product comes out.

Oh, I'm sure you're right. But it's not a $1000 price drop is it? It's a bit more than that from the original.

But all this is purely academic, because some people don't care how much they pay for any product if they want it NOW. That is because generally, consumers make buying decisions heuristcally.

And I agree that in this field of samples, as with any other commercial undertaking, it's good to have competition, which in turn drives forward R&D. If by massive reductions in pricing, any company can then go on to fund further developement, then that is their decision and ethos. That is an agressive approach to marketing and sales - nothing wrong with that.

Therefore, loyal customers ACCEPT that there original purchase price allows a company to go forward to what is hopefully going to be newer and better products. [[;)]]

The only thing I find difficult to understand is the word 'investment'. An investment to me, is something that will hopefully increase in value over time. A sample library is patently not an investment - you are hardly likely to see it increase in monetary value 10 years from now. No - your actual acquired skills and learning are the investment - not samples or computers. They are just tools.

I am sure that all of you are aware of the fact the EVERYTHING drops ion prices (other than Microsoft and Apple). If you buy a computer today, it is half the value tomorrow, if you buy a car......well no more I have to tell.

I see pricing as something that has to come up. How do you guys believe that companies liek VSL or EASTWEST are able to finance their products? I know it costs millions to make them, it cost even more to compensate the lost of hacked versions used out there. (i know I am asales person and worked in a music store for many many years).

However, I see 3000 a good price (if you compare it with renting an orchestra per day... or the prices for crappy Korg innovations that cost 5000 and sounds like libraries 10 years ago!!!) and I apprecuate that some companies offer after a while a discount on some of their itmes. it shows flexibility and supports people that do not have the money right away. I had spend 10.000 in crappy keayboards and other equipment every year just to get one type of sound. Now my overall costs have been reduced to a new computer every two years and some libraries. O

Orchestra libraries in the quality of EASTWEST and VSL are ageless in my opinion....

Peace

Stefan

Usually I try to stay away from topics like this... but to my knowledge, VSL is recording their samples for quite some more than almost 2 years. I guess most of the opinions wouldn't have came up on your inital post if you included in your topic that your post was about VSL saxes - or was it Candy - instead of a flat statement that Doug Rogers himself couldn't put better. I'd not post "New Mercedes P-Class for clearance sale" in a BMW forum... But that wouldn't hinder me from comparing it there to a BMW Y4 either, so don't get me wrong! You are right that it is economical to drop prices, but until recently it hardly was the case at all (Look at all those audio and akai CDs, libraries like Miroslav, AO, and so on, all really "old" now), and now the substantial price loss of 60% is, well, I still call it clearance sales. Do you know which product will be reduced in price like that soon? Tell me, I want to save hard earned money for that, it will sure be worth it! I hope I didn't disturb your comparison...

Apart from that, it's really hard to decide between the Opus1/2 bundle and QLSO Platinum... the prices almost equal and but the content doesn't. Now the choice seems more related to their substatintial differences - I hope for the people deciding that they will know what they'll more like.

All the best.
PolarBear

Hi!

I have lurked NS and here for a bit (on and off). I own GPO, and have wanted to invest in another library to add flexability. I have GS3 Orch, and love the VSL stuff. I have not had a chance to demo the EWQL library (only the mp3's they have). And I got an email informing me of the group buy for platinum. *sigh*

What PolarBear said is exactly what I am up against: If I was set to buy Opus1&2 (great price!), but now faced with this group buy for Plat, and only wanting to throw about $1-1.5k out initially, what to do?

Owning GS3 with the VSL content (beautiful, and 24 bit), what would Opus 1&2 provide in addition to that content? Am I better suited starting with First Edition then? Maybe purchasee some Horizon series stuff (chamber strings, sax, etc) to augment? Or should I take a chance and go for the Plat group buy? Maybe consider dropping $2k plus with VSL? *bigger sigh*

I write mostly prog rock/prog metal, but always wanted to "flesh out" classical/orchestral ideas I have had (used to use a couple Roland units- U220, 880, etc), and with technology today, it is possible to do so and have an "end result" that is really listenable. Plus, if I felt like incorporating orchestral parts in my writing prog rock stuff, or if I feel like pretending I am in Manheim Steamroller for a day or week [[:|]] (hehehehe...). Would be nice to be able to have a library that fits my needs (VSL really seems more suited for my expected uses), and one that allows me to grow without playing "money games." I have the free time to learn to use the VSL stuff, and on good days, the patience [:D]

I sit here now trying to decide: Simply ignore the Plat group buy? After all: If I were looking at Ferraris, and a Lexus went on sale for an incredible price, would it matter? If I was craving that nice ripe Red Delicious apple, but green apples went on special (super terrific low price for one hour only!!!), should I grab the greens just because of the price/savings? *huge sigh*

nikki [:D]

Nikki,

I picked up the Gold Edition on a group buy - really silly price - but it wouldn't tempt me to upgrade it to Gold Pro, or go for the Platinum Edition. It's personal preference to a degree, but for me the fact that EW have recorded in a massive hall seriously detracts from the library's usefulness.

The hall not only takes up a huge amount of disk space, but places a heavy burden on processing power (and RAM), and also it's just too BIG! The middle (stage mic) recordings are awash with reverb and there is nothing you can do about it, neither can you place instruments in a different 'location' - Example: I've just been asked to mock-up a Salvation Army band playing at a dockside as part of a documentary, but there's no way I can use this library for it! Not only that but you are paying for three sets of exactly the same instrument articulations, which with decent convolution reverbs around makes little economic sense.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a BAD library, but it's limited in it's applications - I reckon you'll be left with an ugly mess if you decide to run the strings through some distortion for one of your rock epics! I also feel their attention to detail in programming, organisation and recording is no match for the VSL team, who's consistent, pristine recordings leave you in absolute control.

I'll continue to save up for the VSL Symphonic Cube (which is just around the corner, right guys?) [:D]

Colin

With EWQLSO it is my understanding that with little effort you can get that big hollywood sound out of the box.
How easy is it to achieve that with VSL?
If one is serious about doing compositions for film, what would you consider?

@johnyc said:

With EWQLSO it is my understanding that with little effort you can get that big hollywood sound out of the box.
How easy is it to achieve that with VSL?
If one is serious about doing compositions for film, what would you consider?

What big Hollywood sound?!!! If you are serious about doing compositions for film then a sample library is not going to make you a better composer. As long as you know how to use the samples then either library will sound good. I just happen to prefer VSL.

DG

@johnyc said:

With EWQLSO it is my understanding that with little effort you can get that big hollywood sound out of the box. [...]

[:D] One of the famous Urban Legends ...

... and you need ProT**ls for a pro-sound, too! [;)]

/Dietz

He he,
Urbans legends.

My first car was a massive old Ford Estate, (Station wagon to those across the pond) with which i could take the whole band (5 plus groupies) to a gig. And that included the gear. Price? 2000 australian dollars.

My first computer was an osbourne 'portable' that weighed a ton, and was built like a large suitcase, with, wait for it, 500KB of HD,and those 5 and half inch floppy disks. Price? 2000 Australian dollars.

My first Sax was a Selmer mark Six, with special key action that drifted gently shut when you put it in the case. A beautiful instrument. Price? 5000 Australian Dollars.

My first Piano was a restored Walner (hand built by a yugoslavian in South Africa), with lighting fast hammer action, and a very pretty sound. Price? 16000 Rands.

And i remember the lack of sleep when i bought a Fairlight computer, my how modern that seemed.

My first Motorbike was a Triumph Bonneyville (British version) that leaked more oil than it burnt. Price? 4000 Australain Dollars.

My first samples? Miroslav Vitous. And the sound then was incredible, why i had musical visitors and fellow composers practically living at my place just to hear the noise. Price? The equivalent of 500 British Pounds.


And what did i really want?

A rolls royce.
The same sax.
A bmw K100 with full touring Kit.
A Steinway 9 foot concert grand.
A mac computer that was so powerful you could run a small city.
A set of orchestral samples that would take me musically so close to reality I could write symphonies just to hear them, without the need to hire an orchestra, publish or record.

All of those items on my wish list have kept their value, because of just that. Value.

The sounds we can have these days are amazing compared to the past, and the fact we can even use them is a bonus.

I've done my homework by listening over and over again to the demos on this site and many others, and THIS time i'm going to buy something that will last and keep it's value.

My humble opinion is: there is a marked difference in the quality between VSL and Eastwest.
VSL is MY Rolls Royce of choice (I'll be buying soon i hope), and Eastwest with it's ringing 'gothic' cathedral approach is still just a fancy Ford.

It's hard when you're counting the pennies, but maybe waiting a little longer will give you the result you really want, not 'Near' enough.

Do you want a Rolls, or a Ford?

By the way, this a good time to mention the quality and musicality of the Demos many of you have on this site. My respect to all of you for the wonderful collection of Ideas, Sounds, and Themes I've listened to. I've learned much, and enjoyed greatly.

My regards to you all,

Alex.

@hermitage59 said:

He he,
Do you want a Rolls, or a Ford?

NO COMMENT

thank you hermitage: beautiful "littérature"

the "frenchie"

Alex I think you should copyright your last post and then sell it to VSL for marketing purposes cos you hit the nail right on the head. I succumed to the EWQLSO Gold group buy. There's certain feeling of histeria or feeding frenzy about all these EWQLSO group buys. I like the VSL ethos, top quality, comprehensive, an eye to the bigger picture. I hope they and their customers stay true to their vision.

DC

i second this statement. hey, Alex, whats about a roll royce group buy? [[;)]]

@DaveTubaKing said:

There's certain feeling of histeria or feeding frenzy about all these EWQLSO group buys. I like the VSL ethos, top quality, comprehensive, an eye to the bigger picture. I hope they and their customers stay true to their vision.

DC

True words. Nothing more to add. [[;)]]

Greetz,
Seb

@hermitage59 said:

[...]
My regards to you all,

Alex.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to get these thoughts into nicely put words.

... and I think I'm jealous regarding the Fairlight - even today! [H]

All the best & greetings fom Vienna to Moscow,

/Dietz

Thanks for the kind words.

I have a suggestion.

My comments about the demos on the site ring true. I spend many many hours listening to the textures and layers of sound, and I'm delighted at the creative skills of the composers who put their work forward. And it's the sound i'm interested in. The contributors do a great job promoting a classy product.

My suggestion is a series of short demos, say no more than 16 or 24 bars, of diferent types of sound layers, e.g. A brass ensemble both slowly and at pace, in closely written chords, or a short woodwind choir highlighting the wonderful success you've had with the flutes and oboes. A good example for the strings and harp is William Kersten's Elegy. There something about that piece that really makes it worth listening to.

Or perhaps a full blown fanfare, or 8 bars of rock, or jazz.
Short snippets of different sound colours, and articulations, designed specifically to highlight the very best of VSL sound, featured not just a short demo, but with a brief text explaining the construction, and maybe a tip or two on getting the best out of the product on the same page as the demo itself, related to the sound being heard.

I return your greetings Deitz, and to you and the rest of the team i wish good health and much future success!


Browning once wrote,

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?'

You have my admiration and respect,


Alex.

p.s.
Deitz, The Fairlight was good in it's day, but it would make a pretty good boat mooring now.

Damn it was heavy!

I've just realised what it is about the Elegy that i enjoy.


Elegant simplicity.


Alex.

Good thread... couple of things:

First and foremost, as I see it now VSL and EWQL both have their good and bad points... if I had the money, I'd get both... if I had to pick only one, it would be a really hard decision... but I'd probably choose VSL.

That being said, can someone point me to a demo of VSL that just completely blows you away? When I listen to the individual instruments, they are very beautiful... but almost every full demo I've heard sounds a bit plain to my ear. [[:(]] I'm guessing it's the fake reverb...

Also, any word on when it will be in 24bit? As far as I know, Pro is still 16bit...

I am debating this whole group buy thing too... EWQL is a bit limited to say the least, even with PRO... and no performance tool, well... [[:(]] But still, the end result (their mp3's) do sound quite good (full and realistic).

[edit] I guess I could some it up by stealing Alex's wonderful post... I'm trying to choose between a dented Rolls with no paint job (and the best paint around is watercolor), or a sparkly new Ford... unless, of course, there's some demo on this site that outclasses the others I've heard...

@aristote said:

I am not a polemist [6] , but I just would like to make some remarks. (the frenchie aristote is always excused for its bad English - thank you with the Mac translator -).

I don’t like your topic because it’s not really elegant. For two reasons. First : here ou are on VSL forum. And second : imagine that you are one of the first purchasers of EW. Which would be your feeling, after having bought at the full price Platinum, you were in front of these group buy. Personnally I would not be happy ! [8o|]

I just want to tell you something.

1. If you are professional,would not be sure to make the best deal with EWQL. The quality of the demo is good but doesn’t show you the reality. For example, you never can hear correctly the strings (or some others instruments) alone…
2. Maybe, you'll have "a" large selection of instrument with your solution, but certainly not "the" largest.
3. Don't forget that the Platinum Edition doesn't contain all the ariculations you can find in VSL Pro ed.
4. Don't forget that to play with more articulations, you have to wait the upgrade Pro by EW, that costs the same price than VSL Pro ED without the Performance Tool and the fabulous tools: ALTERNATION, REPETITION and LEGATO in VSL
4. Don't forget that you can not compare the sound quality of sound beetween the Brass &WoodWinds EW and the fabulous Brass &WoodWinds VSL, specally epic horns.
5. Don't forget that the engine Kompakt and Kontakt are not the best engine for this kind of Library. I'm working with Kontakt for all except the VSL collection and I know some users, who have quickly some problem you don’t have with EXS and its tools.

It’s important that you compare what can be to compared.

6. And finally, don’t forget this : on the VSL forum you can write about EWQL, but on the EWforum, if you have the smallest problem with their collection, with all their bugs, if you want to write about VSL, it’s absolutely impossible : you will be excluded. Here, if you have the smallest problem, they do all they can do to find for you a solution.

the frenchie loves VSL is this clear [*-)]:

Hi

I am a QLSO Platinum user and I totally agree with Aristote. ( I am also French)

East/West have banned me twice from there forum because I was reporting problems.


........

The only advantage of QLSO is the "big sound" ; to get it you just need to add a "Space designer reverb"

I just got Kontakt 2 (that includes a lot of OPUS 1)

I can say now that I have regret having bought the QLSO platinum instead of the VSL ; this because not having enough money (got the QLSO PLATINUM for a very good price at 1900 Euro in December 2003).

The VSL lib that is included in Kontakt 2 sounds MUCH better; y

None of this has been my experience at all. EW has always been very responsive, and the "Platinum product is fantastic (and so is VSL which I own). The "Platinum" demos are impressive and completely different to the more intimate sound of VSL. I can't figure why VSL users have such contempt for Platinum - both are ground-breaking products, the best of their kind, but with different recording philosophies. If you prefer one, that's fine, but have some respect for others that prefer a different sound (I couldn't decide so I got both). Having both gives me options to satisfy my clients needs no matter what they want.

Personally, I think some people come here to 'settle the score' with a company, if they didn't get what they want at some point. Having many options is good, having one option is not so good. I choosed to have as much options as possible and my results proof this (personal) decision.

Stefan

@Stefan said:

...I can't figure why VSL users have such contempt for Platinum...Stefan

Well Stefan if you hang around long enough I think you'll find that's not the case and as one who frequents both forums and also has both products (Opus 1 and Gold) I see the same level of respect (which is the majority attitude) and disrespect (which is the minority attitude) on both forums for both products.

DC

I've read Stefan's most recent post on this topic carefully, and offer one or two points.

Stefan, if your experience with EW is a good one, and the product is one of many to suit your clients, it's good for you, and ultimately your choice. Your opinion is as important as anyone else's, and should be considered with an open mind.

In this 21st Century there are many companies all vying for your hard earned dollar, and occasionally, you get to benefit from a group buy, or a heavily discounted product. It's timing, and often a reflection of the current economic state of a company or business, or a drive to get more business through aggressive marketing and the resultant 'special offers.' This is the meat and potatoes of business, and ONE of a number of ways to conduct business today.
Naturally there are other ways, including developing and selling a product that is of the highest calibre, and using the value and quality to sell the product, not discounts or special deals.
This way is just as relavent, and often longer lasting.

But it's also important to respect that others don't have the same opinion, and can express their views passionately, possibly because they are frustrated with one thing or another.

There's another consideration.

I write orchestral music these days, what you 'young 'uns' call classical (!). I always did, but also paid my way in life by writing music for adverts and other things in different styles. It was bread and butter. And back then in the infant days of music technology, my fellow composers and musicians and I would swap notes, and listen to the latest 'sound' eager to try and improve our stock of available samples, and soundfonts. I would often spend hours trying to get a reel to reel to playback in exactly the same place as tracks i'd recorded on a computer or 8 track cassette recorder. (Before the days of computerised sync between r to r's and anything else)

And orchestral music, in particular, strings and woodwind were the holy grail.
If you had a good soundfont of a stringsection that didn't sound like a tin can being dragged down a blackboard, you were lucky, and the envy of others.
Samples have come a long way since then, but the discussions and passions aroused by the merits of this product versus that remain the same, and will continue in the future.
The VSL vs EW discussion is one in a long line, and the fact we have such outstanding quality available these days is a credit to those aspiring to provide us with ever better products.
I wrote my opinion, and it is only my opinion, because i'm not arrogant enough to presume to speak for others. VSL for me, and for what i want, is the better product, based on experience composing, and playing in orchestras of all sizes. It's still only my opnion. You have yours. Aristote and others have theirs too.
You have said it's your opnion that people are using this site to damn a product.
It's their choice and their experience, and just as valid.
For me, having struggled, fought and argued with my computers, sounds and equipment over many years, VSL is the closest i have heard to the sound i know and want. The intimacy of a small room is just as breathtaking as the power of a large hall, and i have to say, based on the Demos, i think VSL is capable of both.
I still have a question mark as to EW's capacity to sound right in an intimate environment, and i think their philosophy is based on a big sound, rather than a good one.

But that's just my opinion!

Regards to you all,

Alex.