Oops [:)]

It seems I was having a bad hair day yesterday, sorry Evan. I misplaced my lard and THAT puts me in an awful mood!

huh? ok. [;)]

lard?

LOL.

huh?

(over my head I guess)

Evan Evans

Evan, I really appreciate your great contributions to this forum (and I am quite new here), but it seems to me that you were answering the question: "How to break into the music for film/tv/radio industry in the USA".

Me and my studio partner both make a living making film scores for danish (mostly) films.
There is a very good film school here in Copenhagen, and many composers have started their carreer making stuff for the directors in the film school. You do this for free of course, but as the director moves on to movies with a real budget, so do you (if he/she likes your music).
The danish film industry is doing fine, and so are many others around the world. Imagine if LA was the only place in the world to make movies... [8-)] [[;)]]
I am not trying to dis americans at all. There is probably just not much public attention on non-american film making in the USA.

I still don't understand the suggestion that European composers with a "local" ambition should move to L.A. to optimize their chances for a career in Europe.

Probably a language issue and I am having a bad mood today.

Anyway, this is a forum based in Europe, with lots of people from Europe, as well as from other countries. Let's not be too US-centric by default.

And Evan, can you please lower the level of your good advice a bit? It might easily be understood as arrogance.

Regards,

Peter

@evanevans said:

huh?

(over my head I guess)

Haven't you watched the film Grease? They put lard in their hair man [:P]

Here's the deal: to Europeans it can come across badly for someone to blurt out that it's a necessity to live in LA, especially since foreigners are not allowed to work in the US. It can also rub someone up the wrong way a little (especially if one has misplaced one's hair products) to assume that anyone wanting to build a career in film/tv must be wanting to do so in the US.

It's just that typically American "there is nothing beyond our boarders" sentiment that often gets jumped on by us Europeans. Since the question didn't mention what continent, and you went ahead and presumed "USA", I promise you it comes across as, well, presumtuous [:)] (I remember you getting annoyed at someone else for that in another thread). Now, it may well be that you had never meant it that way, but I think there is a case for Americans to be overly cautious in that respect, given the social outlook of many of their fellow citizens.

Take care!

My feeling is that if you accept the liklihood that you'll never score a major Hollywood feature film, one can find satisfying, profitable work almost anywhere one chooses to live. (Notice I said ALMOST. I'm sure there are realities of living in some places which would make the obstacles insurmountable.)

For example, I live in Charlotte, North Carolina. It's a lovely, mid-sized city with a great lifestyle. My wife and I made the decision NOT to move to LA when I chose to make it as a full time composer. That was 14 years ago. Today we oversee a shop with 3 full time composers (myself included), a talented sound designer and a full time production coordinator. It has exceeded even my own expectations. I get to work on a variety of stuff, and that's the way I like it. Commercials, TV shows (including the occasional national network show), documentaries...and several independent feature films so far.

It's taken a long time...no doubt much longer than it would have had we relocated to a major media center. We're not getting rich, but we enjoy our work, pay our bills, save a little...and we have a satisfying life.

We work hard to constantly improve our craft. We work hard on having great relationships with our clients. And yes, we have to work hard to keep work flowing in. But if you have sufficient talent and skills...and don't mind working hard...I think you can find a career wherever you are. They told me it couldn't be done in Charlotte, North Carolina. I just shrugged and said, "We'll see."

I found the comments from our European friends interesting, too. I'm afraid I agree with their words about our American perception problem. And I speak from a bit of experience. Two of my favorite film projects have been foreign films...one French, one a Spanish language film set in Chile. I loved the experience...and learned a little about our perception abroad.

Fred Story
Concentrix Music and Sound Design

What Fred writes is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to hear about. I want to know of composers who have not gone the Hollywood route. I admire what he has done tremendously.

And I was not giving advice on my post. I have no advice to give on commercial matters as my bank account can attest. I was just noting that it is helpful to live in a big filmmaking area. Why? Simply because you might meet somebody who was making a film. That's all. And no way am I saying L.A. is the only place - that is LUDICROUS.

In fact there may be far more opportunity in other cities because they are not so dominated by the mainstream union productions which are very exclusive. I have deliberately avoided going to L.A. because I cannot stand huge cities and I detest 99% of mainstream commercial films. So I am looking for encouragement myself from those composers like Fred Story who have done well outside the mainstream "Industry" of Hollywood.

BTW I love the use of the word "Industry" applied to an art form. I wonder - does it produce Industrial Waste? And where is this waste stored? Probably in Nevada, where it will be kept safely underground for the next ten thousand years.

@LDT said:

The danish film industry is doing fine, and so are many others around the world. Imagine if LA was the only place in the world to make movies... [8-)] [[;)]]
I am not trying to dis americans at all. There is probably just not much public attention on non-american film making in the USA.

Fact is there is more opportunity in LA. End of story. I cannot keep saying the same thing 3 times now. You want the best shot and the best resources you come to LA. PERIOD.

Evan Evans

@Peter Roos said:

IAnd Evan, can you please lower the level of your good advice a bit? It might easily be understood as arrogance.

Regards,

Peter

Look, what I am saying is undisputed. I could care less. I dont live in LA. There are other places with great opportunity for scoring in the world. Agreed. But some of you seem to want to challenge what I am saying. Who cares? LA is the undisputed leader for churning out career professional film composers. Enough said. I hate LA.

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

It's just that typically American "there is nothing beyond our boarders" sentiment that often gets jumped on by us Europeans.

Well you guys just have a hypersensitivity to that then. Look it up. That is the problem here. Because that is not what I was inferring, saying, implying or anything. If you guys were just open, you could read my post for it's merits, and not read implied offenses into it because of your hypersensitivities.

The level of opportunity in LA, is probably far more than you guys realize. It's an entire industry, with multiple competitors, in every aspect of music making. If you were to live in New York, the next best place to be in the USA for instance for scoring or dramatic music, your opportunity to make money and refine your skills drops by almost 20 to 1. Now I know there are hotspots in Europe, Asia, Australia, etc., where one can be fortunate enough. This I understand. And in LA the opportunity is even greater.

But I guess you understand that, as do all of you, as this is where your hypersensitivity comes from. I was not aware of this condition that you all have. Had I been, should I have phrased what I said differently? Are you an advocate of unfree speech? in any event, I did not mean to offend. Rather I think you meant to defend.

But I am not against your notions.

Peace.

Evan Evans

@Fred Story said:

I found the comments from our European friends interesting, too. I'm afraid I agree with their words about our American perception problem.

I have not seen this or witnessed this sentiment from any American friends of mine. Or if I have it was not unjustifiable.

Evan Evans

I don't see that anyone has challenged what you said about LA, Evan. In fact, I agree completely. If you want to have ANY shot at scoring a major American feature film, LA is still where you need to be...with London maybe coming in second. (So many great British composers doing American features these days.) Folks like Bruce Broughton and others at seminars I've attended all attest to this. More A-list players per square foot...more scoring stages...more world class post-production facilities. You're right...LA is still the epicenter for film music.

But for commercials, TV and the like...living in LA is not such a pre-requisite. I think that was the original question. And of course, smaller-budget indie films are being made in the most out-of-the-way places, and can be extremely satisfying to work on.

We made a decision that being across the country from our families...living in a place we didn't like...simply wasn't worth it. I accept that when it comes to film work, my shot at the "Big Leagues" is severely limited because of this choice. I'll probably never get rich or be interviewed in Variety. But, that's not why I do music...so no regrets. I admit, I'd love to experience the challenge of doing a big-budget movie. But, I've traveled to foreign countries...gotten to work with the London Symphony (at Abbey Road Studios, no less - a dream come true)...and otherwise worked with talented folks from whom I've learned a lot. Not a bad compromise, in my book.

And on the subject of the perception of Americans, I must have worded it badly. I meant the perception our friends abroad have OF Americans. I just remembered a joke told to me (very good naturedly) by a Chilean producer I became friends with while working on a film in Santiago:

What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bi-lingual.

What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Tri-lingual?

What do you call someone who speaks one language? Gringo.


I'm guilty as charged.
[:D]

Fred Story

You just need to find some work, simple as that. And it is a fact that in LA there is a lot of work being done. There are also quite a few people chasing that work. But a career as a composer in TV,Film or Radio can happen anywhere there is media, provided you have dedication, talent, some friends or supporters and some luck...not sure which is most important. people have to get to know you and your music. The quality of the relationships you build is - I believe - more important than the quantity, so it really doesn't have to be LA. You don't mention your location, calaf5, but if you want to compose for art films, TV or radio most major cities will have opportunites.

I was a touring musician for years, then my band -(Three Mustaphas Three for those who really know) gradually went on long-term hold when everybody fell in love with girls in different countries...aaah, that's another story, but:

I'd always wanted to compose,had written songs, arrangements etc....I suppose I'd been preparing myself without really being aware of it. And I badly wanted a job.

I took some scenes from movies, composed my own music for them. Learned my sequencer well (Notator at the time),learned about MIDI and Audio, programmed and edited sounds. One day,a friend who was working for an advertising agency gave me my first commercial gig when their regular composer was too busy. I listened to everything the director and the editor had to say, put my heart and soul into it. It went well and gave me some confidence (and some cash!).

I was so nervous setting a fee - but the fact is, most people have a budget anyway and you're either happy with what they pay, or you have to haggle, or refuse the job. Isn't it great to get PAID for making music? Be willing to work for free though, or just costs, if you think it will help and you know your client genuinely can't pay. A very important part of the work is learning how music can enhance any kind of performance, so experience is the best teacher. A forum like this is a great resource, too.

As time went on, I made a contact in TV through my girlfriend who was in the business. A producer hired me to do some cover songs for a series (so they wouldn't have to buy the rights to the originals). I did a decent job and he recommended me further. And so it goes on. Once, I actually got a job from some people I'd never met who I'd sent my demo to a whole year before. Just be there....wherever you happen to be, find the people who need music, offer yourself; a break will probably come and then it's up to you what you make of it.

So good luck!

Nigel

Nigel has given some of the best, most practical advice you can get.

Great advice Nigel. I live in SLC, Utah and while the indie market is picking up here every year, there are many other opportunities to score. I am still working my day gig (and writing at 4-8 am and Saturdays), but recently just finished a corporate video song that paid enough for me to live 30 days (took 5 days to complete.)

My dream is to some day make the full time route writing. Hard work, good fortune are requisites for sure.

Having said all that, LA would make much of 'making contacts' easier, but as was pointed out, there are many more that are willing to work on spec to get into the good graces of the Director / Producer. - thus the competition has got to be ridiculous (at all levels).

Of course, as Fred alludes, you can have your cake and eat it too (live where you want your kids to grow up and do what you want to do.) Career Nivrana [:D]

Great discussion.

Rob

Rob,

Hang in there! I spent almost 8 years doing music while holding down a day gig. Then one year I realized I'd earned more doing music than the day gig. That was a cool day, and the beginning of our company.

I've seen a lot of guys jump into it, and jump back out when it didn't pan out as quickly as they thought it should. You'll be amazed at how what you're doing now will serve as a solid foundation for what's to come. The experience...the relationships...it all just keeps adding up.

I wish you nothing but the best!

Fred Story

Fred,

Just a quick note, there is more than MAJOR Hollywood film work to be had in LA.

There's being a copyist, a musician, an orchestrator, a recording engineer, a second, writing for jingles (of which there are amples), TV, infomercials, bumpers, benefits, classical, internships, apprenticeships, etc., etc., then there are the resources, both human and historical, such as the complete Bernard Herrmann archives, Jerry Goldsmith, UCLA Library has a ton of TV film music archives, classical archives, musicians to mingle with, directors, producers, events, seminars, major concerts, artists, an international airport and a domestic airport, etc., etc.,

And believe it or not I HAVE JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE. Truth is there is so much opportunity that you can be working every day of your life there if you are a go getter and you are going to events and meeting people, attending "wrap" parties, passing out demos, etc. There is literally some opportunistic event occurring every 6 to 12 hours in LA for film composers. Likely more. It is impossible to even approach that level anywhere in the entire world. There are over 25 major film schools, each one turning out the highest quality most promising projects and people in the world.

I think you underestimate LA Fred. Anyone can do a MAJOR Hollywood feature from anywhere in the world. The budgets are so big you could live at the North Pole and still deliver on time. I am not talking about major films. I am talking about the best opportunities HANDS DOWN. BAR NONE. UNDISPUTED.

And you don't need a formula for success there other than perseverance, persistence, and commitment. I have been immersed in half of the worlds major markets for composers. Nothing compares to LA. It is light years beyond what other locales could offer.

if you have one life to live, you speak English, and have a want to be given the best opportunities possible to you, and you are willing to hunt them down ferociously, then you will succeed greatly in the Los Angeles area (including some ancillary jobs in San Francisco, San Diego, and Orange County, as well as some remote work in New York).

Outside of that, you have to listen to these other guys from around the world in order to penetrate and be successful in their areas. I've said my peace. Over and out.

Evan Evans

Yeah, I guess you're right. We poor yokels from the hinterlands are destined to wallow forever in mediocrity. [+o(]

hmmmmm. Ok Fred. LOL [;)]

Take it easy.

Evan Evans

First of all - I do live in the LA area.

Second of all - thank you to those of you who actually answered my question.

Here are some of the things I've tried thus far...
1) Researched on-line
2) Made a demo disc
3) Submitted my website to different sites

I just don't know if sending out hundreds of demo discs is the way to go. I don't even know where to send them because I have had almost no luck at finding some list of who's who in the industry. Someone mention getting a Creative Regional Handbook but I have not been able to locate one anywhere.

What should my next step be? Does anyone have a list? What about demo discs...is that the way to go?

calaf