Evan,

I agree that Herrmann uses the interval constantly. However he uses it in a far more straightforward manner (as you suggest) in easily recognizable chord formations as in the Vertigo main title. Goldsmith uses it in far more varied ways, often times not recognizable because it's not a triadic formation and is split between instrument groups where as Herrman very often has it within a single orchestral choir (but not always obviously.)

I would agree that Herrmann probably numerically used it more times. However he seems more chained to it than Goldsmith who seemed to free it from any chains.

Dave Connor

Hi.

I think Stanley Kubrick had a genius for "superbly inappropriate" music - music which doesn't just amplify or enhance the latent drama or emotion, but turns the scene inside out. Johann Strauss in "2001" is a famous example, but there's a scene in "Full Metal Jacket" where the most vile, irritating comedy-novelty record from the 1960s is played as loudly as possible through a scene of total carnage. Its slapstick, happy-go-lucky dumbness is far more unsettling than any dissonant score would be. It's weird to think that a really bad piece of music serves the scene far better than any "good" music could.

Guy

Kubrick wanted above all, irony. And so he used the Blue Danube in "2001," the piece you mentioned Guy, the Mickey Mouse Club theme song in Full Metal Jacket, Beethoven's Ninth Ode to Joy at the end of "Clockwork Orange." Kubrick was a complete artist of the most severe, uncompromising kind imaginable, and so he used whatever he could to get the effect he wanted.

So obviously he was going for something that cut away all conventions - unless those convetions helped what he was trying to do. Having a complete, well-organized score - like Alex North provided - meant nothing to him unless it gave him the effect he wanted.

However, despite the fact I am acutely aware of Kubrick's ironic and unconventional approach in "2001" (I saw it forty times when it was first out in the theater) I still think the score North did may in fact have provided what Kubrick wanted just as well as the temp track which is what he used.

@William said:

"2001" (I saw it forty times when it was first out in the theater)

Man, I still can´t believe it. You´re crazy, man! [[:|]] [:D]

@dpcon said:

I agree that Herrmann uses the interval constantly. However he uses it in a far more straightforward manner (as you suggest) in easily recognizable chord formations as in the Vertigo main title. Goldsmith uses it in far more varied ways, often times not recognizable because it's not a triadic formation and is split between instrument groups where as Herrman very often has it within a single orchestral choir (but not always obviously.)
I would agree that Herrmann probably numerically used it more times. However he seems more chained to it than Goldsmith who seemed to free it from any chains.
Dave Connor

Ok, but I have to go on record and say Goldsmith is more known for his use of 4ths, and especialy fifths than 7ths. But I totally hear you and think that the 7th plays a strong role in Goldsmith, I just think it's not his strongest.

Evan Evans

Last night I heard a terrible score - in the Waler Salles film "The Motorcycle Diaries". It was as if the composer had taken the mic checks and tune-ups of the musicians from some other project and had managed to sell these cast-offs to the director as a "score". Okay, maybe there's an arty John Cage -type score to be made out of mic checks and tune ups - but no way was this the case here. Either the director's tone deaf, or the composer got the gig through nepotism - maybe both!

Another great, truly original & distinctive film score: Louis & Bebe Barron's electronic score for "Forbidden Planet". Absolutely incredible!


Laters

Guy

@evanevans said:

I have to go on record and say Goldsmith is more known for his use of 4ths, and especialy fifths than 7ths. But I totally hear you and think that the 7th plays a strong role in Goldsmith, I just think it's not his strongest. Evan Evans

I agree that JG's music is often dominated by harmonies derived from 4ths and 5ths (unless he's doing period or something.) My point on the Major 7th is that he will use what is a very sweet harmony (in triadic form) for dramatic exclamation and power. Normally (in film music history) anything but a major 7th chord is used for these kind of effects. He would use it for big stingers! It always got my attention when he would do that. I don't think it's his strongest suit either but a kind of innovation in the use of the interval and chord.

Dave Connor

Yes, Forbidden Planet - that is a brilliant score of complete originality from one of the most stiflingly conventional times in the history of movies - the 50s. All of the sounds were from unique circuits created specifically for the composition.

I agree completely on Herrmann's use of the 7th - it is almost an obsession in itself. Though Vertigo used a lot of augmented triads and bitonality, the ethereal use of major 7s is one of his hallmarks, not to mention the more disturbed major 7 with a minor triad - as in Vertigo and Hangover Square - and the famous minor 7 3-note motif from Psycho that he quoted at the end of Taxi Driver.

A more interesting question might be "What film composer do you NOT recognize from work to work??"

BTW for the question at hand my vote goes to Elfman. He has done some good stuff (Delores Claiborne comes to mind) but the Peewee Herman oompah oompah/Edward Siccorhands minor key yelping children's chorus (along with the Batman half @ssed romantic grand themes) can be spotted a million miles away (even when John Williams rips them off to do the Harry Potter flix).

@William said:

"2001" (I saw it forty times when it was first out in the theater)

Man, I still can´t believe it. You´re crazy, man! [[:|]] [:D]

Really? I built a home theater just so I could keep watching it... probably up to 60 or 70 viewings by now by now (I pull it out every month or two..) [[:D]] [[:D]]

@William said:

"2001" (I saw it forty times when it was first out in the theater)

Man, I still can´t believe it. You´re crazy, man! [[:|]] [:D]

Really? I built a home theater just so I could keep watching it... probably up to 60 or 70 viewings by now by now (I pull it out every month or two..) [[:D]] [[:D]]

Yes. It's interesting about 2001. I have good and bad memories about it. We've discussed it many times on this forum. It almost has a documentary feel to it at times. Alex North wasn't the only one to have his score rejected btw. Pink Floyd were also in the frame for a while, I believe.

Didn't Miles Davis do a score for a Louis Malle film? Anybody heard it?

What about potentially great movies ruined by bad music? I think "Amistad" was spoiled by a bad score. Whenever Anthony Hopkins appears on screen the composer (John Williams?) switches on this limp default pseudo-Copland music. It's so clunky and naff and, ultimately, distracting - in a serious film about an incredibly serious subject.

There have been rumours for some time that Chris Cunningham is making a movie of "Neuromancer" with a score by Aphex Twin. I've no idea if it's true, but I hope it is. I could imagine that combination really shaking up all our ideas about film music.

Laters

Guy

@William said:

Not to mention the more disturbed major 7 with a minor triad - as in Vertigo.

This is the very chord I was referring too in Vertigo (i.e. the use of the interval of the major 7th regardless of other voices, mode etc.)

Here's a question for you William (because I stated that Goldsmith used the major 7th for power and drama instead of sweetness): Didn't Herrmann precede him in that, in films like Jason and the Argonauts? Using big huge Major 7ths for dramatic purposes as opposed to say Mahlers very sweet use of it in the Adagio of his 5th?

You're the expert here. I'm very curious because I think it's a real innovation.

Dave Connor

I don't know if I'm an expert. Evan is an expert on Herrmann, but I'm merely an obsessive-compulsive. I think too much about his music and probably should be medicated.

However you are right that Herrmann used this for dramatic effect before any other film composer - the score I've refered to before is "Hangover Square" which is one of the greatest uses of music and film together in Hollywood history. The music is completely incorporated into not only the plot but also the entire psychology of the main character. And this has the prominent, extremely dramatic use of minor triad with major 7th in the piano concerto being written in the story. It is interesting how this chord sounds "wrong" (in being an unresolved dissonance in the minor) by way of an AUGMENTED interval - in effect, an augmented traid is formed above the minor third. But having the leading tone in this position suggests it is trying to go somewhere but can't. It is maybe impossible to put into words - it simply has to be heard in the music - and yet this corresponds in an eerie way to what is happening in the character's mind. Something like the way the repeated arpeggios on the ma7 minor triad in "Vertigo" echo the unresolved psychological tension and swirling dizziness of the story.

@Guy Sigsworth said:

Didn't Miles Davis do a score for a Louis Malle film? Anybody heard it?

ascenseur pour l'échafaud (lift to the scaffold)

Great movie with great music! It wasn´t exactly a score in the narrow sense of score-paper. They improvised to the film. I loved it.
Which brings me to the thought that I actually remember non-orchestral filmmusic much more intense and defined than orchestral one. Interesting thought....

Have you seen "Mo Better Blues"? It has the best miming by actors of musicians' performances ever. Washington and Snipes never really put a breath or a finger out of place, which is amazing when you consider they're miming jazz improvisations. Most actors' recreations of musicians are terrible. I think "toutes les matins du monde" has some pretty good fake viola da gamba playing...

So everyone, tell us your best and worst of actors acting musicians.

Guy

@Guy Sigsworth said:

I think "toutes les matins du monde" has some pretty good fake viola da gamba playing...


Guy

And not only that, it's a great film!

Herrmann's use of the 7th was not from a "7th" perspective. He was more interested in multimelodic movement. Or a kind of 4-part melody if you will. PSYCHO is a great example of this. VERTIGO, and many of his scores.

But mostly, his use of what jazzers call the 7th was never limited simple iterations of harmonies with it attached. No, instead his use was extremely complex.

To find a great example of how he used his, multimelodic technique, checkout the main title to CAPE FEAR.

Evan Evans

Yes, he used the 7th as a prominent part of many melodies. I was just listening to "Ghost and Mrs. Muir" - another example. Or the "book people" melody at the end of "Fahrenheit 451." The nostalgic waltz that was replaying in various forms all throughout his career always featured it as well.

Philip Glass has to be the most recognizable composer alive, simply because his style is so unique. I hear people copying Glass a lot now, however, which has more than once confused me. They usually only copy him so far, then throw in some things that Glass would never do.

Interesting thread. I hear a lot of film music in which I instantly recognize the composer, even if I don't always know the name. I'll just know that he's the one who composed such-and-such, and further research usually bears me out. Film music has changed so much since Jerry Goldsmith's era. It was about the time that ET came out (the movie, not Entertainment Tonight) that it seemed Hollywood had developed a new style, and for a while it seemed that many composers used the same style and even quoted each other. It is becoming more diverse again, but for some time it seemed quite barren, creatively speaking, as if audiences were expecting a certain sound and would walk out if they didn't get it. I tend to generalize, but I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about, even if it isn't as pervasive as I make it sound.

By the way, this is my first post in this forum. The topic was interesting, so I joined.

Shooshie