gugliel,

sorry about that... you're right, and I actually was a little concerned about the association of Lutoslawski with Penderecki when I wrote that.

I guess I was going with the general conversation, and thinking of the fact that _some_ of the techniques Lutoslaski used in the later pieces had a sound somewhat similar to certain moments in Penderecki, at least to somone not familiar with the former's work. Anyway, point well taken!

I actually came to Penderecki through Lutoslawski, as well, which has probably always effected my comparison of the two. Also, I heard Lutoslawski's later works before hearing the earlier ones. I never seem to "discover" anyone or anything in chronologic order!

J.

Mathis,

Huh? No way is that chromatic. It is played by orchestra but not chromatically in the performance I have. Also, Lux Aeterna and Atmospheres are the most famous microtonal music ever composed.

William,

Chromatic refers to the lack of modal harmony. The free use of non-tonality whilst staying true to the basic tones and semitones of ALL music (eastern music is also based on this despite what so many people tend to perport).

Evan Evans

Actually what Mathis was probably trying to say, is better translated as Chromaticism. it doesn't mean even that a minor second melodic interval even be present in the score. it simply means the free use of non-tonality and without roots in modal harmony.

Evan Evans

Bill, I only have the Lontano score at home and just had a look again and I really don´t find any accidentals other than naturals, flats and sharps.

I agree with Evan about the chromatism of eastern music. I don´t hear microtonality in there. It´s different tuning and maybe different tunings to choose from, but the thinking is still in halfsteps. When talking about microtonility, I think of quartertones and smaller, or specified deviations to generate differential or sum tones.

Lux Aeterna, Atmospheres -- both chromatic, not microtonal, unless my memory deceives me. I've looked at both scores, but don't own them or have access to them presently. Penderecki specifies quartertones, specifically, in various works including the famous St Luke Passion. I sang that (in the chorus) last year, and there is nothing other than chromaticism in the choral parts, but the strings have a few quartertones. Not sure about the solo vocal parts.

Chromatic does not refer to "lack of modal harmony" - plenty of chromatic music is modal also.

All right Mathis and Gugliel you can both slug me because I was in error about calling these microtonal. I looked up Ligetti's statement and he described his work on these pieces - Lontano, Apparitions and Lux Aeterna - as "micropolyphonic" not microtonal, though the sound is utterly different from chromatic atonalism. On Lux Aeterna he said "I broke with my preceding style of chromatic tone clusters (as in Atmospheres or Requiem). It is a 16-voice micropolyphonic piece with diatonic voice leading of complex canons."

The sound of this actually performed is so far from the clear distinctions of chromaticism in for example Berg or Webern that it something basically different and has clearly audible warping of the 12 written tones, but it is something that happens in the mind of the listener. It would be interesting to compare this to a similarly scored but definitively microtonal piece. I know this will enrage some people but exactly the same thing happens in the 4th movement of the Tchaikovsky 6th: there is a line in the strings which does not exist anywhere on the page, but only in the mind of the listener.

Likewise on Atmospheres - it is scored chromatically but you don't hear it because of the extreme emphasis on color, as well as the creation of perceived overtones and shifts in harmony due to these colors. It is an almost supernatural piece of music.

No problem, William -- the sounds are unique for sure, and don't know if they would be richer with microtones. Currently, I'm most interested in microtones in connection with 'purer' sounds, tuning and playing with overtones, rather than in pushing past clusters like Ligeti toward pink noise.

Wow, I did not realize Atmospheres was not microtonal. What an accomplishment then.

Evan Evans

@William said:

The sound of this actually performed is so far from the clear distinctions of chromaticism in for example Berg or Webern that it something basically different and has clearly audible warping of the 12 written tones, but it is something that happens in the mind of the listener. It would be interesting to compare this to a similarly scored but definitively microtonal piece. I know this will enrage some people but exactly the same thing happens in the 4th movement of the Tchaikovsky 6th: there is a line in the strings which does not exist anywhere on the page, but only in the mind of the listener.

Likewise on Atmospheres - it is scored chromatically but you don't hear it because of the extreme emphasis on color, as well as the creation of perceived overtones and shifts in harmony due to these colors. It is an almost supernatural piece of music.

I definitely agree.

Isn't music great?!!

I love this stuff!

best,
John

@evanevans said:

Wow, I did not realize Atmospheres was not microtonal. What an accomplishment then.

Evan Evans

Atmosperes starts with every chromatic note from the lowest double bass over I think five or perhaps seven octaves played PP or PPP. The tone cluster to beat all tone clusters and one of the most extraordinary sounds in orchestral music.

Ligeti lost it from the Horn Trio onwards sadly. There's an interesting article on Ligeti here:

http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?REQUNIQ=1092827382&REQSESS=560253&117000REQEVENT=&REQINT1=229080

Dave

Sorry if I rant but my chin hit the floor when I read your Ligeti comment. I have to say that Ligeti’s most recent works (the piano Etudes) are widely accepted as being the most important new works for piano since Boulez sonata no2, and in my opinion they have advanced musical thought (as well as technical possibilities) by a greater extent than any of his previous works, including his earlier "micropolyphonic" pieces.

To clarify, as I understand it, micropolyphony is a term Ligeti used to describe a block of very closely spaced chromatic, polyphonic writing, usually played very quickly. This technique is what gives works like Lontano their hazy, shimmering type effect. What sounds like a static chromatic line is actually many lines, very close together, played very quickly.

Strange to say but you can hear the idea most clearly executed in one of his more "jokey" pieces for two harpsichords "Hungarian Rock". As the repeated figures speed-up the attacks from each instrument suddenly become "almost" unperceivable (once you get beyond more than one every 5 ms or so) and you have a single chromatic block of sound, kind of shimmering. It's very odd to play, in some ways very similar to Piano Phase.

If people are interested in these pyschoacoustical tricks then first set of Piano Etudes is definitely worth listening to.

Good discussion as ever.

Nick

I think "continuum" is probably the clearest example of where extremely fast-moving sound turns into a haze.

(BTW I'm really enjoying Fennesz's "Venice" album at the moment. I love his way of using granular synthesis to create a hidden rapid movement inside otherwise slow-moving sounds - he's definitely a cut (!) above the other glitch musicians. He's not the first person ever to do granular stuff, but he's more musical, less geeky about it than most of them.)

Isn't the point about micro-polyphony that the cloud-like density of the writing means you can't make out the individual lines any more. Tallis's "Spem In Alium" - written half a millenium ago - also gives me that feeling. It's written for forty polyphonic lines (eight 5-part choirs), and by the time all forty are singing, you really can't make out the individual lines. It's a fantastic piece of music.

Laters

Guy

Nick,

Not ranting at all - impassioned. Glad to see it.

I don't know enough post Horn Trio Ligeti to justify my huge overgeneralisation but it was interesting to see your response which is what I was hoping to encourage. Hopefully others will be enthused to explore some of the later Ligeti you've mentioned.

I did feel let down by Ligeti with his Brahmsian Trio - and even as a piece of post-romantic music I personally don't think it works so well. It was like Ligeti was my avante garde hero and then he turns his back on us. I never really understood why he did that. Still I was young and headstrong.

My favourite Ligeti is still the pre trio Orchestral and chamber music. The Aventures and Nouvelle Aventures are a complete riot - what imagination - what daring and importantly what fun. I saw them sung by three naked singers at the Queen Elizabeth Hall 20 odd years ago [:O]ops: . Quite an experience for a college student.

Do you know any Kagel? I've heard about some piece of his where the musicians get taken hostage. The audience don't know it's "part of the piece" till what? The SWAT teams turn up at the end and start firing? Hmm - I guess after recent news events that kind of thing doesn't seem so clever any more. It was probably a product of "quieter times" than now. But I'm intrigued if any VSL members know anything about that piece or anything else by him.

Ah I see your point David. I worked throught Ligeti's works kind of backwards starting with the piano concerto going back. Thinking about it that is very good point regarding the trio, which had never really struck me before. I suppose wth some pieces by Ligeti I kind of dismiss without really thinking why, like the piece for 100 metronomes, Volumina (sp) and those later Hungarin chorale studies, the name of which I forget. You've got me thinking now...

Oh and Guy was correct, I'd got my titles mixed-up, as usual.

Regards

Nick

@Nick said:

...suppose wth some pieces by Ligeti I kind of dismiss without really thinking why, like the piece for 100 metronomes, Volumina (sp) and those later Hungarin chorale studies, the name of which I forget. You've got me thinking now...Nick

I wouldn't dismiss Poeme Electonique (the metronome piece) or Volumina. Poeme Electronic is one of those pieces like Cages 4'33" which just had to be written and if they hadn't somebody else would have. I have seen PE performed at the Union Chapel in Islington during the sadly lamented Almeida Festivals in the 80s and 90s. It was a fascinating (and enjoyable) aural and visual experience. What is a joke is Ligeti releasing an extract (about 5 minutes of the usual 20 minutes) as part of the recent CD collections??

Volumina does things to an organ that you wouldn't want your mother-in-law to hear but is enormous fun - at least I think so. Oddly it seems to me that pre Horn Trio Ligeti was vital and full of the excitement of youth but post Horn Trio he's become too full of his own importance and concerned with his comercial success and consequently lost that vitality and relevance. But don't quote me on that.

Guy

I don't know the Kagel you mention and have only experienced a couple of his pieces including playing his "Tuba Mirum" for solo tuba where as well as fairly freeky playing technique the player is required to sing/shout/scream the Latin Tuba Mirrum and do some theatrics with the positioning of the tuba and walking off stage. Again though, it is a fun piece and not to be taken too seriously.

For me much of the best avant garde music (and art) is intended to be fun. it is the pretentious that gives it a bad name.

Dave TK

I heard/saw some Kagel many years ago, and have looked at several scores -- formed the opinion back then that he was a fraud, one of many from his time (Boguslaw Shafer was another, as I recall). But perhaps that was one of those too-hasty judgments. Haven't heard any or seen mention for years.

@DaveTubaKing said:

Poeme Electronic is one of those pieces ...

Just a quick formal (german [[;)]] ) correction: the famous "Poème electronic" is by Edgar Varèse. The Ligeti piece is called "Poème symphonique for 100 metronomes".