Jon,

Actually, I have taken J. Newton Howard to task for writing some really dreadful music. That said, I think Dinosaur is one of his best and shows he's capable of rising to the occasion. Goldsmith is light years beyond JNH in virtually every concievable way musically.

I'll leave it to William to extoll the virtues of orchestrating inferior material as you have suggested. He's far more eloquent on the subject than me.

Gentlemen, there is more than a little Symphony of Psalms in the Omen don't you think?

Dave Connor

@dpcon said:

Actually, I have taken J. Newton Howard to task for writing some really dreadful music.

Dave

Dave was good Dave. [8-)] I haven't heard Toy Story and that's twice it's come up on this thread.

French Horns and indeed, the whole horn section of an orchestra is my favourite sound Jonathan. Thats definately Jerry Goldsmith/John Barry territory and with regard to The Omen I'm unaware of the similarity, but will defer to your knowledge re: any derivation, Dave. It's the same with L.A. Confidential and On The Waterfront to my ears, but it's still a great piece of atmospheric writing.

Didn't Jerry Goldsmith win 'an award' for The Omen? [6]

Paul,

Agreed: "Dave" is a delightful score and my favorite from Mr. Newton Howard.

Goldsmiths only Oscar (I believe) is for The Omen. That would mean he didn't win for Patton (astonishing!) so I'll investigate. He should have about 10 Oscars by now really.

I need to listen to Leonard Bernstein's On the Waterfront score as you've mentioned the similarities before.

Dave

Dave,

At least Jerry Goldsmith won one Oscar. Alfred Hitchcock didn't win any

Paul

I just have to drop in here to say that, whether you love him or hate him, John Williams is a wonderfull, wonderfull musical mind.

If you aren't into his mainstream stuff, listen to minority report, and the nasty chase scenes in episode 2 like "Jango's Escape".

There are a few snobs around that have deemed it "uncool" to apreciate the quality of this man's music, just because he is very popular and can, among many other things, compose a sweet, mainstream theme when the movie calls for it. Evan, I'm talking to you [:O] (pinch of salt, ok? Oh, and the day you reduce a williams chase scene to piano, I'll eat my hat)

John Williams RULES!!!

As a composer he's been alot of inspiration to me. I don't know if I've got some of his style but you can listen to my Space Suite at:

www.sidbarnhoorn.tk or,
http://sidbarn.magic-systems.net

Tell me what ya think,

Take care,
-Sid.

Note to mention his highly original score for "Catch me if you can" featuring tenor sax and marimba. Schindler's list is also a powerful score. One may not like his style but JW is a master indeed for both composition and orchestration. His music is so rich and complex with so many layers. His use of rhythm is amazing. His themes memorable. Listen to his scores for Harry Potter they're like vitamins for composers! Compare too the simplistic chordal approach of the Media Venture style (which can be very effective) JW is in league of his own.

Some interesting trivia on Williams. I recently discovered he started out composing for TV on shows like Gilligan's Island! He also wrote the themes and underscore for scifi show like The Land of Giants, The Time Tunnel and of course Lost in Space. These were shows I was listening to as a child and I remember the music fondly. The guy has been writing music for 50+ years
(he's 72)

Another favorite composer of mine is Clint Mansell (Pi, Requiem for a Dream) combining electronic music and acoustic instruments.

Sadly, I think one of John Williams' most memorable scores was from a very forgettable movie. Anyone seen 'Seven Years In Tibet'? I've never been able to forget that melody. And I thought his use of Tibetan instruments, while something you would expect, was still original and evocative.

Fred Story

I still remember (without having seen recently) the old Lost in Space themes - there were two, and they both had unusually good ideas. Also Land of the Giants, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. Those stuck out like sore thumbs compared to other TV music. When he wrote those he went by the name "Johnny" Williams.

My problem with John Williams is not John Williams. He is obviously a tremendous musician. It is the movies he has scored. I am disgusted to the point of rage by what the idiots in control of Star Wars and all its imitations do: reduce music to a sound effect. You cannot even hear about 3/4 of what John Williams wrote because it is covered up by explosions. That is bullshit. To hire a great orchestra, with augmented numbers of players, record the entire score perfectly and then reduce it to inaudibilty. I have nothing but contempt for this kind of filmmaking and the hacks who do it.

Stanley Kubrick created a thousand times more power and impact than George Lucas and Steven Spielberg and all their stupid punched up sound effects put together... with TOTAL SILENCE.

That's why I like John Williams' non-heroic, non-action, non special effects film music, like "The Fury" and some others. Simply because you can hear the music and it is used as music.

No doubt John Williams has had a very huge impact with the film going public ear, but I don't know one other professional working film composer that credits him as a primary influence. I for one was never that endeared to his work, althought I must give him his credit due for not only surviving in a difficult and brutal business, but also for his consistant work and contribution to films over many decades, which in itself is a major accomplishment.

Howard Shore, not my cup of tea. Too much dribble.

Danny Elfman. I remember reading his responses in letters sent into Keyboard magazine some 12 years ago. He was being beaten senseless by some snob music educator from an American music university. I think that today, no one would give him the crap he took then. He has proved himself to be a genuine talent and is constantly producing great work. I wonder where that snob went?

Thomas Newman, one of the best of his generation. Incredible sense of emotion.

Jerry Goldsmith, sets the standard for orchestration in many ways.

John Berry, nobody writes melody as good as this guy, nor makes you hum it walking out of the theater.

James Newton, he's very good, but just missing something in making a personal mark like others.

Ennio, he's freaking briliant. Not so much a all around composer, but very special in the right setting.

@William said:

You cannot even hear about 3/4 of what John Williams wrote because it is covered up by explosions.

[:D] , sorry, I´m not laughing at you, it´s my recent past. I was a sound editor and sound designer the last five years and thought of course the complete opposite way...

But, I tell you: It´s not the sound effects, nor the music which is the enemy, it´s dialog! [[;)]]

Bests,
- M

I agree with what you're saying Tripit on all of those except maybe John Williams who I do think is tremendously influential and talented.

But I remember reading that magazine article by the obnoxious snob from the Conservatory (we had one of those here on this forum recently - he had to let everyone know immediately that he was from Julliard just so we were all reduced to quiet worshipfulness. It didn't work.) In that magazine, Elfman didn't say anything arrogant - he in fact was saying he regretted not having training at a Conservatory! But this snob just couldn't wait to put him down because he was a film composer. I've experienced that first hand so am just a little irritated (translation: homicidal) whenever I encounter it these days.

Sorry Mathis - I am the mortal enemy of Dolby Digital sound effects. And all the mind-numbing, brain-deadening, ear-splitting cacophony of today's films.

Well, of course I agree with you, there´s a reason why I left this field. However, it´s not the sound designers nor Dolbys fault, it´s the films themselves. All these sound geeks just do their best to fulfill what the picture and its director calls for. Don´t blaim them.
Most sound designers I got to know - among these were very "famous" ones who do lots of these films - are very sick of that demand. It´s just that everybody in the industry thinks that a film cannot be sold without bombastic sound and maybe they´re right, who knows.
Literally *everybody* in the sound department I met is dreaming of a delicate film which calls for subtle narrative use of sound _and_ music because it relies on the filmic language of vision and sound, not on description by dialog.

Most of the time the problem for a sound editor with music is, that directors tend to distrust their own film in the end and ask the composer for nearly 100 percent film length of music which is of course disgusting. And there are also really lots of things sound effects can tell better than music, but directors don´t trust that either.

Bill, the only solution is: let´s keep up our work on our own films!

Mathis, that is a good observation based on your experience and I find it interesting how what you're saying is true in all the fields involved in film - writing, acting, directing, cinematography, music, sound, editing - everyone wants to do something good but is forced to do crap because of one other field: marketing.

BTW I agree with your solution.

@Tripit said:

Ennio, he's freaking briliant. Not so much a all around composer, but very special in the right setting.

I've just finished watching The Untouchables a minute ago. Haven't seen it for a while. Ennio Morricone composed, conducted and orchestrated the score to this brilliant film. I would have to say he is actually an all round composer and remains one of the best in my view. The different styles he pulls out for this score, whilst remaining musically to stay within the context of the film is in another league. Definately a very steep learning curve for any aspiring filmscore writer, and yes, 'freaking' brilliant. That's film making and that's filmscore writing at it's best and nobody said it's supposed to be easy. The combined attention to detail in the film and the score seperates the wheat from the chaff. Why watch drivel? Although professionally, needs must when the Devil drives.

James Horner, for instance, did the score for The Mask of Zorro and changes musical style constantly throughout the film, but unlike Morricone, it's almost as if one is watching (and hearing) different subject matter every fifteen minutes. Although, I liked his scoring to The Name of the Rose, just so as to even it up a little. [[;)]]

How about Philip Glass?

He's not that big but I think he's great.
Do you know his score on "The Hours".

Very taunting and expressive.

Just close your eyes and let the journey begin.

It 's easy but it goes straight to your heart.
At least for me [:)]

Vincent

Vincent,

"The hours" was good lecture to me. Philip Glass´s music I really can´t stand running in a CD-Player or in a concert because of its banal simplicity but I was impressed how well it worked with that picture. That was a good lecture about film scoring.

Bests,
- M

I'm no Phillip Glass fan, either...but I, too, thought his soundtrack for "The Hours" worked well with the movie. (I wasn't surprised at its Oscar nomination.)

In fact, after grudgingly coming to this conclusion, I started paying close attention to see if I could tell why this soundtrack felt so musical when I find most other Glass music almost annoying.

My take was this: Two things made it work. The musicians...and the mix.

One thing I find annoying about some of the Glass I've heard is that the dynamics are almost mechanical. And the recordings tend to sound sterile to me. I thought the pianist and string players brought a great deal of musicality to the score. Also, it was recorded at Abbey Road, and Jonathan Allen's beautiful, lush mix made the music wrap around the story. (I admit a bias, here. I've had the privilege of working with Jonathan once. And I wasn't surprised when I saw his name in the closing credits.)

This score...and 'Kundun'...could almost make me like Phillip Glass.

Almost.

Fred Story

Phillip Glass is responsible for one of the worst film scores in the history of filmmaking: the "New Score" to the Universal "Dracula" which is first of all a film that had no score. So we are dealing with tampering to begin with. But this atrocity has to be heard to be believed. It has absolutely nothing to do with the film at any point, and drones on and on incredibly irritatingly with no reference to what is happening on the screen. It is like music composed by a chimp.

Another example of Glass's prententiousness: putting his grubby mitts all over Jean Cocteau's and George Auric's masterpiece of film and music ""Beauty and the Beast." The arrogant Glass had the gall to erase the beautiful impressionist soundtrack by Auric, and replace it with his own moronic droning which he calls music.

Why this person is so acclaimed is one of the anomalies of modern music.