How the world's orchestra's are so different......

[Paw]

Im sure you are aware every country has their own unique sound and playing style particularly in the string sections......and i found it interesting as to why a colleague of mine hired an 85 piece orchestra in russia.So why not the english? "too pompass".The american's? "they play very straight and literally to the letter". so why the russians? because "they play with the sound a bit more and bend it around and add their own articulations to an already written score".They have a romantic style with big long flowing lines"........and after listening to the finished score i had to agree the russian string sections are superb.
No offence to any country....i just thought it was interesting how the same score with the same size orchestra could sound so different when using orchestra's in different country's.Still........The russians did have the greatest string writer of all time tchaikovsky.
Ps these are my colleague's quotes and not mine......so please dont take offence on me.

[William]

That's interesting, and maybe true. Of course individual examples could contradict it - like the Philadelphia Orchestra was always famous for its lush strings. But I remember hearing the Borodin B Minor Symphony played by various orchestras of different nationalities, and then finally by the Moscow Symphony. It was like another piece of music. Far more powerful, expressive, and "romantic" sounding like what you mention.

[Dietz]

... often referred to as the "deep slavonian soul" ...

/Dietz

[PaulR]

@Paw said:

No offence to any country....i just thought it was interesting

No offence and I hope you don't mind Paw, but which country do you come from? I'm interested. It's not England is it? [:)]


PaulR

[evan evans]

More interesting fodder from Paw. I agree with you Paw. Each country has it's forte (pun-intended). I disagree with William citing that individual examples could contradict it. The conductor and the composition do not change the orchestras innate qualities. And those qualities that ultimately are found to be innate and unchangeable are mostly due to rationale, sensibility, locale, and disposition. All of those are affected by the nationality of the orchestras members, as they are all basically social dynamics. Second to my choice of nationality is the choice of hall. Then conductor (if not the composer). These are such important factors if you are trying to do more than realize your score, and actually create a recording of artistry. And of course, soloists can be just as important as the choice of orchestra or conductor as well.

Evan Evans

[Paw]

Hi paulr

Yep im english as if you hadn't guessed already.......

[William]

"The conductor and the composition do not change the orchestras innate qualities." Evan Evans

The composition may not, but the conductor can have a profound effect.

I am talking about sometimes extreme differences within nationalities that are based upon a tradition within an orchestra that is formed to a large extent by conductors.

For example, the Philadephia Orchestra vs. the Chicago Symphony vs. the New York Philharmonic.

The "Philadephia Sound" was created mainly during the Eugene Ormandy years. He was a very stable, traditional and conservative conductor and a violinist, and while he was condcutor the orchestra acquired its renown for having a very rich sounding, lush string section and a certain "delicate" or more classical bent.

The Chicago Symphony was utterly different. Its brass has been the most awesomely powerful sound ever heard in all music history. Listen to the famous Solti recording of Mahler's Eighth (there's only one) which is a recording and performance that does not seem to be confined to normal human capabilities. Or the Tchaik 6th. There is a precision, combined with an undiluted raw power of expression that is totally different from Philadelphia. This is due to the conductor and the traditions that conductor interacted with.

The third example is the New York Phil sound which was created almost completely by Bernstein. It is American, but exactly what Paw is talking about in reference to the Russian sound- the musicians warp and play with the sound far more, and sometimes it comes close to derailing. But it never does, because Bernstein took everything to the limit and slightly farther, but knew when to exert control. So this other American orchestra ends up sounding again completely different in a way that could correspond to basic nationalistic differences. That is what I mean by individual examples contradicting the general tendency.

[evan evans]

William,

Agreed. But I was talking about innate qualities. Those that are not changed or affected by the conductor.

Evan Evans

[PaulR]

@Paw said:

Hi paulr

Yep im english as if you hadn't guessed already.......

OK buddy. No offence. I just wondered where Pompass came from in your earlier post. Is that a type of grass? [[[:D]]]

[dpcon]

Interesting that Leonard Bernstein is of Russian extraction in light of previous comments.

The difference between orchestras worldwide does seem to be very apparent.
It used to be the difference in recording quality was so extreme that an honest comparison could hardly be made. No longer true.

I have to agree with the stated characteristics of different regions. I also agree with the huge impact of the conductor. George Zell (Hungarian) made a Midwestern American orchestra (Cleveland) sound like it was from another world. Bruno Walter the same with Los Angeles and New York players that were not even organized bodies (singular orchestras.)

Tchaikovsky is a great composer who surprises over and over. But I have never heard spine tingling string writing like Beethoven's (9th symph, quartets, etc.) from any composer. Because I've never heard any composer who could write like the guy.

Dave Connor

And bless William for mentioning the Chicago Brass. Completely unsurpassed while defining the art and sound of brass playing.

[William]

Dave,

That is interesting about Bernstein. I have the old LP of his performance of the Shostakovitch 5th which was recorded just after the tour the New York Philharmonic did of the Soviet Union - the first ever by an American orchestra. Apparently, Bernstein shocked the Russians with his tempos and energy, and yet it was a shock they loved.

That recording as I've mentioned elsewhere here is one of that rare group of superhuman performances somehow captured that never fails to amaze anyone who hears it.

[dpcon]

William,

I have that very LP. With Rostapovich playing the Cello concerto on side two.

Bernstein was Shostakovich's favorite American conductor.

DC

[William]

It's not exactly the same since mine is only the 5th. I wonder if they are the same recording though and just a different pressing.

[fitch]

PAW i have to agree with you about russian string sound..

i can remember when i first heard a russian string section.. having previously only heard english and american in concert.. i was blown away.. they moved, they drew so much sound out of their instruments.. which BTW didn't seem as good as some of the other orchestras i'd experienced..they were a ballet orchestra as well i think.. not a big named one

that was the moment i decided to go study with a russian cello teacher.. an ex pupil of rostroprivich.. karin georgian.. [[:|]]

blew me away then.. blows me away now..

you cannot beat that richness

it's a whole different school of learning... they concentrate so much on sound production.. a thing i know english schools don't go for.. technique.. fast notes is what they chase..
all i learnt in years was left hand stuff... it took a russian master to even wake up my bow arm [H]

weeks spent on one note.. open G god .. that note is like a zen meditation to me now..

russian string school.. beautiful rich sound.. relaxed yet intense

[dpcon]

William,

My mistake. I'm sure it's the same one (5th only). With conductor and composer shaking hands in front of orchestra (and rows of organ pipes.)

The Cello Concerto #1 is the flip side of my Shostakovich 1st Symph. Two great pieces.

Dave

[William]

Dave,

Yeah, it must be the same - this one has the same photo.

I believe completely what is being said about the Russian sound. It has a tremendous "soul" to it that maybe cannot be matched anywhere else, in exactly the same way.

Another example - the Stokowski recordings. I think that much of the "Serious" music critics' problem with Stokowski may really stem from his representing this "music at all costs" attitude which is so Russian. Many people don't like this level of intensity. He would burn through any barrier in order to get a more expressive performance. The single most expressive sound of any recording I've heard is his transcription, on a particular LP I have, of Bach's "Komm Susser Tod." There is something the violas do in that, warping the pitch down to the tonic at the apoggiatura before the very end (which of course in this piece is REALLY the end) that is simply spine-chilling. I haven't heard many other recordings with this level of expression.

[evan evans]

The atonal music really isn't done right unless it's in Russia. otherwise it sounds like a bunch of mathematicians doing lab experiments!

[:)]

Evan Evans

[dpcon]

William,

I heard a Stokowski transciption of a Bach work several weeks ago and was totally floored. How many did he do? I believe he was the conductor as well on this recording. It really was another level of music making. Brilliant guy.

DC,

Looking forward to a new % of knowledge here.

[William]

He did around twelve, including the Toccata and Fugure in d minor, the Violin Partita in D - Chaconne, one of his best, the "Little" Fugue, "A Mighty Fortress," the E Major Preludium and "Komm Susser Tod" which is the best of all. He conducted all of them, though there is a new recording out by Pekonnen. Many of the recordings were in mono, done around the time of "Fantasia" though I have an LP that has the best of the transcriptions and performances and they are stereo. It is the one I mentioned before, that has been re-released on CD but the mix (re-mastered) is not as good as the old LP.

You're right about another level - that's what I've always thought about the transcription/conducting/performance/recording of Stokowski which are all among the best I've ever heard. Stokowski, having written the transcriptions, was able as an equally great conductor to get performances that are simply uncanny in their expressiveness. Also, he was very "hip" to technology and seriously approached recording while other conductors were looking down their noses at it.

By the way there is an interesting parallel to these transcriptions in film music - Max Steiner wrote a good score for the 40s Universal horror film "Beast with Five Fingers" that included a transcription, probably influenced by Stokowski, of the Chaconne as part of the score. It was not plagiarism but a clever integration of the music being played by a one-handed classical pianist.