However, what interests me about Evan, is that I now see that he's found his way to an application of this technology which truly honors his ethical standpoint. My experience of this problem is similar to his, and perhaps even more acute since I do all my composing in Finale (or Sibelius), and therefor am always trying to find ways of making the VSL respond directly to the score itself. I don't even want to go in and edit midi parameters, since that, to me, is already tech-work and unnecessary with a score that contains all such operations in its historical fabric (at least to the eyes of a performer). However, I have noticed in the past that if I get great new samples of, say, trombone crescendi, suddenly I will be painfully tempted to use them. Now, because the crescendi are "locked" in time, and cannot really accomodate a wide variety of durations, I suddenly (and somewhat secretly) start inventing situations in which the sample itself will work, as recorded. So, the sample now starts dictating the way I write, and even the way I think musically. Needless to say, being a composer rooted in "ethic A", I find this quite disturbing. There is some peace, however, in the fact that I know my works are ultimately intended for live performance, and thus the sampled crescendi will ultimately be obliterated by the "real thing".

But I nevertheless know, in my heart of hearts, that those crescendi I'm hearing in the concert hall are the result of a sample library influencing my musical decisions. Is this actually a problem? I don't really know, but certainly since buying the VSL it's becoming less of a problem. And, as I said earlier, I'm even starting to see that the virtual orchestra can become a medium in itself. In thinking this, of course, I'm faced with an ethical decision -- do I deny the score, after all these years, and compose for this new medium, this new venue, without concern of the possibility or impossibility of live performance? Well, one thing that interests me is the thought creating of pieces which are deliberately "impossible" -- too large an ensemble to fit in a hall, a virtual space of impossible dimensions, etc. In this I would still obey the logic of the score, but at the same time make use of the immense possibilities offered by the virtuality of both instrumental forces and performance space.

Well, this is unresolved, but I hope it will shed some light, or produce more interesting conversation....

oh yeah, and much of it could be totally bogus (but it makes sense to me)!

the end.

James. [*-)]

James,

GREAT post. I really enjoyed your perspective. Though he certainly doesn't need it, Evan has my undying support to adhere reliously to Ethic A...or WHATEVER methods suit him.

My point has simply been, when you say Ethic A is right,and Ethic B is wrong - or even immoral, for pity's sake - and condescend to those who disagree...for me it's just not a constructive contribution to the dialogue. And with little time to spend on forums like this, it tends to make me want to spend more time where the conversations are more constructive. One guy hogging the bandwidth makes slogging through threads slow going. But he doesn't think it's a problem...he even brags about it. Too bad.

But I'm sure glad you wrote your post before I dashed off. Great stuff.

Fred Story

@Fred Story said:

...Hopefully we were all taught a few more social skills.

Social skills?! Lol. What are you form England? Are you? Hmm. Let me check. Lol. Anyway, no ... I am a composer. It doesn't get much more socially inept than that!

There's also nothing worse than a socially conscious composer! Uck! They probably use prerecorded runs and glisses! (cause it's so accepted!)

[:)]

Evan Evans

@William said:

Sorry my friend, but you changed the logic of your argument in midstream. Now it applies only in certain cases. The crucial element that creates the legato performances - the brief slide between start and end notes - is NOT adjustable at all.

Wrong. it does not change the fundamental flexibility of what you do with it. It is merely a different sounding version of single note samples. it is a technology so advanced a plugin had to be written to take advantage of it. A cresc/dim doesn't have that flexibility. The perf-tool/inst combination merely gives you the same flexibility with the fundamental concept of using these pointillistic playback samples called "notes" (we've used them for centuries now), with a little added realism. In no way can anyone write HALF a note. A note is complete when it is played from NOTE ON to NOTE OFF. The performance instruments do not fundamentally change that concept and that power and flexibility which has always been available.

What we need is a dynamic tool. But the cool thing is that we actually already have it and works great! The DYNAMIC LAYERS.

I'm afraid I can no longer speak with you William.

WILLIAM
Open your mind, Evan!

EVAN
Daisy, daisy, ...

singing continues as a large projection of Evan's head looms ominously in space.

script continues...

@Fred Story said:

My point is, I don't criticize the choices others make. I don't do it with the other composers I work with. I don't do it on public forums. I think it's disrespectful and just plain wrong. And those who dash it off as 'simply being honest' or 'speaking their mind' just don't get it...and probably never will. Hopefully we were all taught a few more social skills. Plus, setting oneself up as the arbiter of 'artistic integrtiy'...just how pompous is THAT?

So for those who refrain from the value judgments, thanks for sharing. We all benefit from an exchange of ideas and experiences.

And to those who think that if we're doing things any way but theirs we're wrong - or somehow lesser for it, well...that's YOUR problem.

I hear you. But at the same time it sounds like someone has a little bit of an inferiority complex or is sensitive towards those who might.

Also, it always makes me laugh those who think everyone is equal. It doesn't require much intelligence to realize that there isn't one person the same as another on this planet ... never has been. But yet, people (likely with lesser equality) still fight for a concept of equality. Hey, some people suck. Sorry dude. And I have a lot of people I hold in high regard. Prioritizing is a bitch. If you feel good about being a smorgasbord of everything, go for it. I am ME, and no one can be me, but ME.

As BEAKER from the Muppets says:

"me eme me me eem eme emem em em e me me eme me"

[:)]

Evan Evans

@jbm said:

However, what interests me about Evan, is that I now see that he's found his way to an application of this technology which truly honors his ethical standpoint.

Indeed. perfectly said. before these huge libraries I was as much a dissatisfied ETHIC A composer as possible. I write for the orchestra. Not having that capability at my fingertips was very unsatisfying. As little as it sounds, I believe now with VSL you can do about 40% of what the orchestra can do. My art is the orchestra.

I've always said,

"I'd like to amass enough equipment to help me get to the point where I can sell it all."

Evan Evans

JBM,

Furthermore, the use of great MIDI realizations actually is beginning to create a stronger polarization in the concert world towards the avant garde and boundary-pushing-acoustic-art. Whilst MIDI is gaining a foothold at doing the impossible, and emulating for budgetary concerns, orchestra. As well as avant garde electronic/digital-acoustic-art.

Evan Evans

@Fred Story said:

My point is, I don't criticize the choices others make. I don't do it with the other composers I work with. I don't do it on public forums. I think it's disrespectful and just plain wrong. And those who dash it off as 'simply being honest' or 'speaking their mind' just don't get it...and probably never will. Hopefully we were all taught a few more social skills. Plus, setting oneself up as the arbiter of 'artistic integrtiy'...just how pompous is THAT?

So for those who refrain from the value judgments, thanks for sharing. We all benefit from an exchange of ideas and experiences.

And to those who think that if we're doing things any way but theirs we're wrong - or somehow lesser for it, well...that's YOUR problem.

I hear you. But at the same time it sounds like someone has a little bit of an inferiority complex or is sensitive towards those who might.

Also, it always makes me laugh those who think everyone is equal. It doesn't require much intelligence to realize that there isn't one person the same as another on this planet ... never has been. But yet, people (likely with lesser equality) still fight for a concept of equality. Hey, some people suck. Sorry dude. And I have a lot of people I hold in high regard. Prioritizing is a bitch. If you feel good about being a smorgasbord of everything, go for it. I am ME, and no one can be me, but ME.

As BEAKER from the Muppets says:

"me eme me me eem eme emem em em e me me eme me"

[:)]

Evan Evans

Well, first of all you don't know me, or anything about me...so to make any assumptions about me is rude and arrogant. If I were to make assumptions about you based soley on what I read here, I'd say you're a pompous little jerk. Ring true? Didn't think so.

Your other assumptions make ME laugh. Where could you possibly have inferred that I don't acknowledge that there are different levels of talent, skill and experience? The difference is, you're probably one of those guys who has no problem walking up to someone and cheerfully saying, "Hey! You suck!" I'm not. Why? Because my mother taught me some manners. And when you have any modicum of respect for others (the key word here being 'others'...not 'ME'), you treat them accordingly...especially relative strangers in a public forum.

Evan, you're intelligent, talented, and highly skilled. You just don't have any manners. But how could you? Manners require that you have consideration for someone besides "me eme me me eem eme emem em em e me me eme me".

Fred Story

And furthermore, Evan is no Jack Kennedy - and he never will be.

S

Jamey, great post. I really enjoyed reading it. I actually also think about that for quite a long time. In the moment I´m more busy with Ethik A, since it helps me learning to understand the orchestra. But my thoughts for the future are definitly in the region of Ethik B.
I´m a great admirer of Conlon Nancarrow and his work for player piano. So I´m thinking of using the midi orchestra as a kind of player orchestra.
Hm. but now during writing I discover that the fascination by Nancarrow might lie in the impossible virtuosity on one single instrument. If there are many instruments, this fascination is not necessarily transported.
But, anyway, what I´m right now planning is a piece for church organ in the Nancarrow style. There exist quite a lot of pieces in that manner for barrel organ, but applying this thing to a sampled church organ to transform it into a mechanical player church organ is my current idea.
Well, we´ll see.

Just thank you for interesting contribution.
Bests,
- Mathis

@Another User said:

Also, it always makes me laugh those who think everyone is equal. It doesn't require much intelligence to realize that there isn't one person the same as another on this planet ... never has been. But yet, people (likely with lesser equality) still fight for a concept of equality.

Wow, with an overgeneralized statement like that, it's a great thing Ghandi, MLK, Mandela and others don't think the way you think.
But of course, you were referring to your indomitable talent and recognized works the world over, right?

Evan Evans

Being arrogant and rude is not a sign of a "quirky character" or a "unique individual" or an "intense artist" or a "reincarnation of Bernard Herrmann" or whatever you think it is. It is simply being arrogant and rude. I am tired of your insulting and lecturing to everyone on this forum as if they are idiots. This used to be an open-minded and exciting sharing of ideas and enthusiasm. You have turned it into something uglier and far more commonplace.

JBM,

I read with great interest your post, and agree very much. In fact, I have heard very few people discuss this in such an intelligent way - especially the idea of how using samples is in a sense a new way of representing not the prowess of a brilliant performer, but the imagination of the composer. This is a great point you made. I also am mainly a concert composer (who does some film music) and am using the VSL and other libraries just for composing. They are tremendous tools that have never existed prior to our time, and can be part of something very idealistic - not just as an economical substitute for a film orchestra. Thanks for sharing your fascinating thoughts.

"Take this forum back! Are we gonna let that guy push us around? Power to the people, man! (Sorry, must be having a bad flashback.)"
- Fred Story

Fred,
I'm having the same flashback.

The most insecure person of all is the one who must boast of his accomplisments. Perhaps one who may be trying to fill some very big shoes, knowing he never will. He is the one who must continually shout and point out what he perceives to be the flaws of others. Don't be angry with this person, my friends, he deserves your sympathy. For what must his life be like, to always have to measure up. Pay him no mind, no attention, and perhaps he may just go away and order will be restored.

But he wrote that one really big...blockbuster, independent, low-budget, straight-to limited VHS release, horror movie score that pushed modern film scoring techniques to new levels! And he's got a really big brain! Its almost like having the local intellectual, 50-year-old, high school drop-out lecture you on your life, just before asking you if you would like him to bag your groceries in paper or plastic bags.

Kind of hard to stomach all his rhetoric, when his wealth of knowledge, talent, and connections have yet to produce any significant work.

If I am speaking unfairly E-cubed, feel free to inform us of some of your work that can be found in the local video store, music store, television, or movie theater. Something above the B movie horror flicks, that all of us unskilled hacks have been able to accomplish. Can we even find info on you and your music anywhere other than a website that you run? I'm convinced your good enough to do better...but you unfortunately open your mouth too often....who could tolerate you, really? I guess when you keep your head that far up your ass at all times, you can't really smell the bullshit that comes out of your mouth anytime its moving. Please let me, and the 1 other member of your fan club know the second you land a job that gives you the clout to play knowledge authority over anyone on this forum.

I agree that Evan went too far in his last posts. As interesting he sometimes might be, he has to respect others. There´s absolutely no right for him to be oberbearing.
I agree that we basically should stop paying attention to him. But practically this won´t gonna happen on an internet forum.

[quote=newbiebigtime] Its almost like having the local intellectual, 50-year-old, high school drop-out lecture you on your life, just before asking you if you would like him to bag your groceries in paper or plastic bags..
[quote]

[:D] [:D] [:D]

Now that IS funny! Evan, for God sake do something about your self-esteem.

I'd like to say more, but I have a date with my local super-market.

@newbiebigtime said:

Its almost like having the local intellectual, 50-year-old, high school drop-out lecture you on your life, just before asking you if you would like him to bag your groceries in paper or plastic bags.

Lol. That's great.

Uh, guys, wanna point out what I said that was rude? I'm sorry if I did. Not sure what it was.

William, do you see what I am saying about legato instruments not interferring with the line that can be "drawn" between "phrases" and base samples lending complete flexibility?

You guys might not respect IVES as much as I do, but for instance his works weren't even published while Beethoven had become the next Mozart. So if my works are JUST in video stores while JOHN WILLIAMS pumps out more rubbish found everywhere on the planet, I just don't see the basis for comparison. Something found only in video stores is automatically not as worthy as a huge score? Please. I don't buy that at all. NewbieBigTime, you are judging very materialistically with some highly subjective parameters..

Evan Evans

I'm kind of envious of Evan in a way. It must be blissful being good at music, and so clueless about everything else.