@William said:

Every big-shot critic panned it, saying exactly the same thing: "Hitchcock bears down too hard... sadistic..." etc. etc. Critics - the scum of the earth.

Whats really scary, is I remember reading these sort of reviews at the time, and I was like 9 or something. I thought it was normal, but it turns out it was a funny household I grew up in (my second name is Norman). But anyway...

Money for Alfred Hitchcock at the time, was one of the major driving factors and he needed a hit. One of his original ideas to was appeal to the early sixties teen angsts by making the film and blitzing the drive-in movie theatres with it.

But as you quite rightly say Bill, Joseph Stephano and indeed partly Bernard Herrmann changed what could have been just another teen horror flick into what its become today. A lot of it is certainly down to the score and as a sidenote, I think the 'actor' Evan is referring to is Anthony Perkins. Almost a cliche now, the high pitched strings in Pschyo are usually what people use as a musical reference point for the film, but for me, it is the music that accompanies the scene where Janet Leigh is blindly driving through the rain, finally winding up at Bates Motel. Fantastic music!

Evan, when you say the end scene in a previous post in this thread, are you talking about Hangover Square or Psycho. [*-)]

That is a really good point, Paul, about the driving scene. If you analyze it, all that is on the screen is shots of a woman driving a car. Little aspects of them - it getting darker, starting to rain, wipers moving irritatingly - give it a hint of a mood, but the entire psychology and meaning of the scene comes from the music. She is a "driven" woman - she felt the need to steal the money, and is agitated, thinking obsessively, trying to figure out what to do - many elements suggested by the story context, but none actually present in the images. All of them are in the music.

@PaulR said:

But as you quite rightly say Bill, Joseph Stephano and indeed partly Bernard Herrmann changed what could have been just another teen horror flick into what its become today. A lot of it is certainly down to the score and as a sidenote, I think the 'actor' Evan is referring to is Anthony Perkins. Almost a cliche now, the high pitched strings in Pschyo are usually what people use as a musical reference point for the film, but for me, it is the music that accompanies the scene where Janet Leigh is blindly driving through the rain, finally winding up at Bates Motel. Fantastic music!

Evan, when you say the end scene in a previous post in this thread, are you talking about Hangover Square or Psycho. [*-)]

hangover Square.

For me, in Psycho, the two best cues are MOPPING UP, and MADHOUSE. With MADHOUSE being the best cue in the film. And the shrieking strings are so effective of course. But there's nothign like when MADHOUSE comes in after Perkins says, "Oh, you mean a instituion? A Madhouse?" as he leans forward with aggression. Suddenly eating apeanut butter and jelly sandwich in teh back of a middle of nowhere hotel with dead animals surrounding you starts to seem a little stupider than taking a shower with your eyes closed.

Oh. Here's another Herrmann piece of trivia. He always tried ot name his cues with one word names. This was so that he could prove to himself that he found the most fundamental reason for the cue and that it was the same as the title. He sometimes used the word THE, but usually just called a cue something like KNIFE, MADHOUSE, SUBMARINE, OCTOPUS, etc.

Evan Evans

Good stuff Evan.

What about Cape Fear, released a year after Psycho. Thats an opening motif to remember.

Evan,

Interesting that you would point out "Madhouse" - I agree that is a haunting section of music, truly brilliant and it is my favorite cue also. BTW is there a recording available of Sinfonietta for Strings?

Thanks for that info about Herrmann liking to use single-name titles. That is fascinating - that if such a thing could be done he would know he had gotten to an elemental level.

That reminds me - just today I saw a quote from him I hadn't seen before -in a recent book on James Stewart. The author quoted Herrmann (I don't have it before me but will paraphrase) to the effect that he had dredged "Vertigo" from his subconscious mind, because the story so affected him it was different from any others.

A couple others of my other favorite Herrmann scores -

"On Dangerous Ground" which is a somewhat less known but great film noir with Ida Lupino, Robert Ryan. This has the famous "Death Hunt" section with a fabulous, virtuosic use of horn section playing triplets to accompany the chase of an escaped killer in the snowy wilderness. Also, some very lyrical, tender string writing for the scenes which show the loneliness of the blind character of Ida Lupino. It is one of his best scores though no one ever seems to talk about it.

"Jason and the Argonauts" For the Harryhausen spectacle, Herrmann was not only inspired by the great animation effects but also by the mythological subject. An example is the transformation of Hermes from an old man into a god culminating with Jason's appearance at Olympus. It starts with a quiet harp and solo woodwinds in a plaintive, sad mood. Then more of the woodwind ensemble joins in, with stronger, heavier block chords in tertiary progressions. Fanfares sound, and then all Heaven breaks loose with chimes, glockenspiel, full brass ensemble and harp glissandi. It is something only a master of both the art and technique of orchestration could ever write and it creates the entire cinematic experience as vividly as the filmed shots themselves.

By the way a great new recording faithful to the screen tempos came out recently, conducted by Bruce Broughton with the Sinfonia of London. It is one of the best film music recordings I've ever heard, and the recording is particularly striking. The sound was delberately recorded with a very tight, clean ambience in a smaller space - not the typical "majestic" huge reverberant hall. This makes the percussion and fast attacked brass parts all the more clear and strong, and the multiple harp parts individually audible.

Sinfonietta For Strings is available on an album with a few other works I believe. It might be with a Rozsa Conerto for Timpani. But if you email me, I'll make you happy (if you're on Mac) [:)]

Evan Evans

I crave more discussion of Bernard Herrmann! Please respond with your own ideas.

other great scores - "Marnie." This is what Truffaut called Hitchcock's "flawed masterpiece." The film was affected by various problems (including Hitchcock trying to jump the leading lady), but Herrmann's score creates an intensely passionate effect in a story of overly Freudian psychosexual drama (about which Hitchcock said "I don't believe a word of it.") Particularly striking are the main theme for Marnie, which Herrmann pulled out all the romantic stops on, the hysterical "red" motif in shrieking woodwinds and violins for Marnie's phobia, and the horseback riding scene with its echoes of the fox hunt in the horns leading to a catastrophe as the horse falls.

"Mysterious Island" For another spectacular Harryhausen FX fest, Herrmann did some of his most grotesque orchestrations. Particularly vivid is the writing for woodwinds in 7/4 that accompanies the fight with the giant crab. Also, some extremely atmospheric impressions of nature in turmoil, as in the tremendous evocation of the balloon in the storm at the beginning. Christopher Palmer, a fine scholar of film music, stated that while Debussy was the supreme musical interpreter of nature in repose, Herrmann was the greatest of nature in turmoil. Something like his own life, apparently.

Being dubbed the next Herrmann is easily said. But I'd love to see what you guys think of my score to HUNTING HUMANS. It was my first score where I actually did not copy or be inspired by any other scores. It was my first true score having rung out all my "works for the barrell" so to speak. Although there may be Herrmann influence, I'd prefer to think of it as, "what could someone do who takes the ball of Herrmann and continues it into the 21st century?" That's me. [:)]

http://pro.evanevans.org/default.asp?q=f&f=%2Faudio%2FFeature%5FFilms%2FHunting%5FHumans

Comments [*-)]:

Evan Evans

Wow, I really forgot breathing during the last minutes of the title track... very dramatic and compelling!

For me as a novice to filmmusic it still has some oldfashioned touch, I have to say. I really like that, but personally I don´t exactly understand what details make you think that this is more 21. century than the "good old days" of filmmusic.
Please don´t take me wrong, I just didn´t study filmmusic history enough to understand these connaisseur details, maybe you could enlighten me a bit.
Compositionally for my personal taste this descending sequenced motive is repeated once too often, but this might be one of those film vs. concert things. It might work totally different in connection to the picture.

What other tracks do you recommend listening to despite of the title track?

Thanks for sharing,
- Mathis

Thanks Mathis. No, my goal is to bring back the Golden Age of scoring to the Silver Screen. So I was just saying that I am like a 21st Century Herrmann, with no real twist per sey. Just what if that approach and methodology was still used today. That's the concept.

Thank you for listening to the whole Main Titles. It apparently is what all my fans agree is one of the best cues in the film. Incidentally there is a nod to Psycho in the film. A serial Killer is waiting in a shower for a naked woman to pull back teh curtains and take her shower. He then terminates her life graphically.

The film is about a serial killer and it is narrated by the killer and becomes a kind of philiosophy of the serial killer. "No remorse. Only strangers." etc. But the twist comes when this prolific serial killer discovers his next victim already slain by someone else who left a note for him. They eventually are pitted against each other in a final scene.

That is the other great cue in my opinion. it's called CHECKMATE. It's right here:
http://pro.evanevans.org/media/audio/Feature_Films/Hunting_Humans/Track%2018.mp3

There is also an eerie cue with the WRATH theme while the serial killer is driving home through a tunnel telling us about his last kill and his next one. It's called WRATH. Here it is:
http://pro.evanevans.org/media/audio/Feature_Films/Hunting_Humans/Track%2004.mp3

But listen to some other tracks. This is a film music fan's dream score. Every cue is a golden nugget. I relaly hope to re-record a suite from Hunting Humans some day wih orchestra.

Also, this was created a while ago on my OLD setup. I had I think 40 MIDI channels and a total of 128MB RAM. A lot of sounds were custom programmed by me, but mostly it was Miroslav Vitous. Sorry VSL. [:(]

Incidentally I begin this director's next film in two weeks, "Fear of Clowns". 60 day scoring schedule. The last film was so successful that he got matching funds and pre-distribution and shot it on 35MM !!!


Evan Evans

Evan,

I only downloaded the main title - fantastic. Very Herrmannesque but you've incorporated the influence into your own work. You have real mastery not only of orchestration but also of using orchestral samples and your ideas are consistently strong and compelling. I don't have much to say because my reaction is emotional to this - I loved it.

BTW MVSOS still sounds great doesn't it? (sorry VSL)

Sincerely,
William Kersten

"No, my goal is to bring back the Golden Age of scoring to the Silver Screen."

The new Davidsbundler. Sign me up.

Man, CHECKMATE is amazing! Great music! Your talent is extraordinary.

I understood your concept now, sorry for my ignorance....
I wouldn´t mind if your music would fill up bigger pictures. This is quality of music I´m really missing in current film business.

Good luck for your career!
- Mathis

And, yes, the idea of a suite recorded with real orchestra sounds terrific. Although I also have to say, that this "old" sampling technology sounds amazingly good in your hands.

I'd like to hear more of your music Evan, but can't download these things - too big for my primitive connection. Please sell me CDs of everything you've done! I want to hear it.

I am trying to calm myself with some friendly discussion here after getting near-homicidal as a result of a certain nose-in-the-air musician on the other forum.

There is one thing I am thinking Evan about your goal, and I don't mean to sound negative but it is the result of my own work. I have similar goals to yours. However, I have been so repelled by the current state of commercial film that I have deliberately not pursued scoring jobs. You as a professional must take jobs and be practical. That is what disturbed me about the attack on you criticizing your previous work on low budget stuff. The person who did that does not understand that a composer is not and cannot be responsible for the quality of the films he works on, only his own music. And you obviously hold that up excellently.

But this is exactly my problem. As a composer I find film music impossible to do professionally because I cannot stand to have my music on a piece of crap movie. It is as if the music has been "polluted" or "tainted" by association. That is if you write something serious and sincere. Sure, if you write garbage to go with garbage, that's fine but you don't and most of the people here don't either.

We admire Herrmann greatly, but he is unique in film history not only for his talent, but for the films he got to work on. His first firm was 'Citizen Kane"! The film called by most people the greatest movie ever made. That was his first! And arguably he went upwards from there, with Welles, Hitchcock, Harryhausen to name three.

You can't do this today, no matter how good you are, in commercial cinema. Because it has been taken over by the suits and MBAs and demographic analysts. They have ruined the art form as it exists in mainstream cinema.

As a result I believe that a serious film composer must do one of two things: (1) Work only on artistically sound independent films or (2) Make his own films. Otherwise, he risks prostituting himself and his talent.

I was thinking of this specifically in relation to your Hunting Humans score. When I first listened to the music, I had no idea of what the film was about. In my mind your music conjured up images of dark, brooding, powerful drama, rising to tragic or even mythic levels.

I then read the plot synopsis and was shocked, because it sounds so banal and crappy. I don't like the idea of your music having to be associated with this kind of thing any more than I want mine to be. I think composers must not compromise, in direct relation to the amount of talent they have. That means you should not, ever, as long as it is within your knowledge or ability not to.

>As a result I believe that a serious film composer must do one of two things: (1) Work only on artistically sound independent films or (2) Make his own films. Otherwise, he risks prostituting himself and his talent.

OK, how 'bout the notion then that to be a 'serious' film composer you have to commit your self to do it and just it. So you quit your day job and dive into it. But then, you usually don't have the luxury of choice which projects you take on. Of course you can just say no when it doesn't feel quite like it , but doing so repeatedly is not gonna get you very far from a business perspective. What's your take on this ?

>(1) Work only on artistically sound independent films

Heck, how would you know before you're in the boat ? Unless it's totally un-artistic mainstream popcorn cinema, not even the director and the producer know for sure how exactly it's gonna come out in the end.

Christian


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Christian,

I am really disturbed, not putting on airs - by films today. So I try other approaches that aren't as practical and "luxurious." I am talking about my personal response that's all.

(Didn't mean to be offensive)

William,

that´s why we agreed so much on the crap script things... [:D]

More honest, I think I exactly understand your position. It´s exactly this problem which let me quit my musical career five years ago and let me go into the sound editing / sound designing business. I had lots of fun there and had a great living (fortunatly I got hired for good films). BUT.... it was not music.
This "BUT" stuck in the back of my neck and never let me feel really happy with my job. I needed to become thirty to finally quit it and return to music.
I decided now that I want to make my living from creating music, which of course means that I will also be dependent on crap movies.

There are some philosophic points which allow me to do this:
First, I don´t regard music that much anymore as a means of personal expression. That´s the most crucial one. I discovered that a lot of music is just fooling me, it seems to be very personal but it´s just great skills.
I left the romantic idea of plunging into myself and am now more interested in the baroque idea of generating emotional states. When something in my music is moving you it´s not my personal emotion, it´s some music which is moving you and me. I´m not writing music which comes out of me, I´m writing music which moves me. That´s a difference.

Second, I started to enjoy industrial processes. Creativity as an industrial process. Actually that also freed my mind.

Third, if I´m doing music for a film, it´s not my film. That I really had to learn in the beginning of my sound editing career. I was of course very motivated and had lots of original ideas which were rejected. Somehow I learned to accept that it´s not my film. My job is to propose original ideas but if they are rejected I don´t feel insulted anymore.

Fourth, I discovered that it´s not healthy for my own artistic work, which is not related to commissions, to work in a non-musical job. I experienced that I have to deal with musical material all the time to keep my musical mind working. Even when I´m dealing with a boring naive musical statement for a commercial it might bring me an idea for an artistic piece.

That´s my current state of thinking. I didn´t start yet to proof these ideas, since I have to get into business first, but they make me confident.

Best regards,
- Mathis

William and Mathis,

Your obvious love for the work and passion to keep it pure is admirable. God bless you, and everyone on this forum, who reaches for art and fights the good fight.

But I'm reminded of a recent interview with Danny Elfman, who in his typically colorful manner said, "There are some projects where I end up saying to myself, 'Who do I have to f**k to get off this movie?' But then I realize that I have to be professional. I was hired to do a job, and I have to just focus on the craft and do my best."

Here's a guy whom you would THINK is beyond the usual crap. But my perception is that NOBODY is immune from it. And I'm reminded of some of best advice I ever got. I tend to obsess over the smallest things. Years ago somone I worked for took note of this and offered, "Any time you spend worrying about things beyond your control is wasted time. Focus on the things you DO have control over." So now, when I lobby for my ideas I realize that I'll win some, I'll lose some, and some will land in the middle. But when the director looks at me and says, "I appreciate your input, but THIS is the way I want it.", I don't have control any longer. So, like Elfman, I focus on the craft and do my best. And I try to never let it make me reluctant to reach high the next time...and the next...and the next.

My personal feeling is that if you want to make it in the music BUSINESS, you need to find your own method of dealing with this reality.

And of course, the thing I love most about working on films is that they are such a COLLABORATIVE effort. And as such, I must be as open to others' ideas as I want them to be to mine.

Boy, some great discussions go on here, don't they?

Fred Story
Concentrix Music and Sound Design
www.concentrixmusic.com

> I am talking about my personal response that's all.

Yes, i am aware of that, that's why i asked for your opinion.

>(Didn't mean to be offensive)

I haven't had the time to properly respond to your unedited post, so i won't, but i din't take it as offensive. Not that much, actually.


>"Any time you spend worrying about things beyond your control is wasted time. Focus on the things you DO have control over."

Very good advice and yet so hard to follow, especially *when* you put your heart into it, cause only then do you really care and that doesn't stop by itself once the last note is put. I had to learn to not get attached too much to anything, because, as you said, once the director says it's out, it's out.

>"I appreciate your input, but THIS is the way I want it."

But that's still better than the other sort of director who takes input from all sides and still can't decide which way they like best.

Christian

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