I believe the whole set of definitions we've learned are challenged by nowadays technology.

I think that a music student with probably two years of training (about the time it takes being able to read decently a score), and who has skills on computers, and who uses to hang at NorthernSounds forums and here and has enough money to buy a computer, a sequencer and a lot of sample libraries could make a mockup of a classical symphony. This is of course NOT the case of Andy B, but this might happen.

I admit the combination of skills required is very demanding: how to use a sequencer and a sampler, knowledge about sample libraries and special tools for them, knowledge on how to translate a score into a sequencer part. Also, it's almost mandatory to have a target recording of the 'to-mockup' piece, mixing/mastering skills and good ears. Ah, also absolute determination to finish a huge work and near-to-infinite patience.

However... is that person a formal 'musician'? It might happen that the subject would be unable to express him/herself in any other way. Perhaps he/she has zero performance abilities, not being able to perform -any- musical instrument, sing, or compose in a minimum level.

I have to admit that everytime someone around calls a dj a 'musician', my spine gets suddenly frozen. Probably I should have some therapy about it [:)]

However, I realize that most concepts I've learned are obsolete. And I see no replacement yet. Ongoing learning.

-René

I am not sure what orchestras you guys were working with that did all these edits....?
I have recorded countless pieces and in a large scale piece there is not alot of editing. If there is a mistake or something is wrong we always stop and start over not leave it up to the engineers. If someone cannot play clean expressive takes 9 times out of 10...then they should not have the job...there is no need for extreme edits at that level.

As far as the thinking this does not sound cold or lifeless...well that is just it.
People cannot tell. That is the downfall of culture and education in our world today but that is too big a subject for here. That recording of the GS La Mer is dead and lifeless and no doubt a machine but like I said before very inpressive and would it fool my mom? .....sadly probably...
I meant it is scary for a joke...that i was lose my job. Just a light hearted comment.
I was a part of the whole virtual orchestra strike on Broadway too...I am not even going to go there....
hahaha....

@René said:

...I admit the combination of skills required is very demanding: how to use a sequencer and a sampler, knowledge about sample libraries and special tools for them, knowledge on how to translate a score into a sequencer part. Also, it's almost mandatory to have a target recording of the 'to-mockup' piece, mixing/mastering skills and good ears. Ah, also absolute determination to finish a huge work and near-to-infinite patience.

I believe there's a lot of misunderstanding around as to what this process actually involves. To achieve what we're talking about, it is NOT 'knowlege on how to translate a score into a sequencer part'..., but quite simply, musicianship.
The timing of every note, the shaping of every phrase, the interaction of all the parts, the rhythmic pulse, musical intensity, direction, flow... These are musical elements. The knowlege skills you mention are the equivalent to the instrumental skills needed to actually play an instrument. But we mustn't confuse practical skills with musicality. OK, so someone could be a fantastic musician and not feel able (or not want) to express their musicality via samples on a computer. Someone could know everything there is to know about sequencing and sampling, but if they're not a musician, the result will be unmusical. Equally, there are highly polished instrumentalists around who don't play musically! A musician - first and foremost, that is - with the interest and determination - can do this and achieve musical results.

Only one thing scares me: sampled mock-ups done UNMUSICALLY! These are dangerous in my opinion, because the audience is getting more and more used to hearing unmusical sounds passed off as music. THAT could undermine the true art of musical performance in my opinion.

Simon

@Another User said:

I believe there's a lot of misunderstanding around as to what this process actually involves. To achieve what we're talking about, it is NOT 'knowlege on how to translate a score into a sequencer part'..., but quite simply, musicianship.

Well, I don't really think the same way. I know a lot of music 'experts' who can only 'hear' well, as the result of hearing thousands of other's performances. Combining computer skills with a good appreciation of the music, (as you mentioned, how parts should combine, how to articulate a simple frase to transmit the correct emotion, etc) would define that person as a 'musician' in your concept. Probably you are right, but I'm still reluctant to accept it that way.

Looks more like 'a person with good musical appreciation and computer skills' than a 'musician' to me. Definitely not the average Joe, but pretty far from an interpreter, composer or conductor.

-René

@nafai23 said:

As far as the thinking this does not sound cold or lifeless...well that is just it.
People cannot tell. That is the downfall of culture and education in our world today but that is too big a subject for here. That recording of the GS La Mer is dead and lifeless and no doubt a machine but like I said before very inpressive and would it fool my mom? .....sadly probably...
I meant it is scary for a joke...that i was lose my job. Just a light hearted comment.
I was a part of the whole virtual orchestra strike on Broadway too...I am not even going to go there....
hahaha....

We were posting at the same time... And in a way I was saying almost the same thing: the scary fact that people may not be able to tell soon what is musical and what isn't.
But this is where I find it very interesting: everyone seems to hear in a slightly different way. I know many people who wouldn't hear beyond the [agreed] slightly 'cold' absence of real players in a room together. In my aural 'filter' the highest priorities are aspects like timing, distribution of accents, emphasis, phrasing, etc. etc. And this is what I was admiring: the perfection of that work, and the care that went into that. And because we all listen to music in different ways, we'll never all agree on what music-making is. You see, the 'La Mer' excerpt is only a machine in terms of following what the creator, Andy, played on his keyboard, and delivering samples in response to this. The lines were not played by a machine. The computer isn't 'playing' anything, it has merely recorded the [edited] input from someone's keyboard playing. I would rather listen to that than a BAD real performance. But of course I'd be lying if I said I always wanted to hear music made that way!!

But I agree in principle that it's a dangerous area in terms of aspects of musical performance being removed from something that many people will believe IS a real live musical performance, or won't bother to care. In fact that already started with recordings. Music is transient in nature. To 'fix' it by making a recording is already a step down this road. Some people never go to a concert!

So in the end I find myself in agreement about the dangers, but still insistent that technology in the hands of musicians can be used to create something musical.

(and BTW that edits only destroy the music if done badly; can bring a recording to life if done by a musician... And I'm not only refering to a bad orchestra/performance, but to getting MORE than 100% out of a top level recording. ie. raising the level beyond that which was offered at the sessions. And I'm not just talking about the removal of mistakes...)

Thanks - this sort of discussion is useful for collating one's thoughts!

@René said:

how parts should combine, how to articulate a simple frase to transmit the correct emotion, etc

These are all "how to's". That's knowledge. Agreed. But I was refering to actually 'doing' - actually performing the music on a piano keyboard (which after all pianists do all the time...). That's where the 'passive musician' (the term I would use for what you described) becomes an 'active musician' - an interpreter. And when fiddling around with note lengths and timing in a sequencer, something which you may say the 'passive musician' could do without being able to 'perform' anything, I would still say that's a deliberate act of interpretation - being inspired to move the fourth note of a clarinet run so it comes slightly later, for example, - not much different from a clarinettist suddenly being inspired to play the 4th note a little later. I say this having been in both 'seats' myself (except cello not clarinet), and realising that I was essentially carrying out the same process - one of making music.
Getting a bit philosophical...!

simon,
As a computer performance and technical achievement I am very impressed and the person responsible certain has listened to many orchestras and has a great ear and great skills with the software...
If you want me to listen to this as a real performance and real musicianship...
well to start...the first oboe solo (30 secs)....phrasing is terrible...monotone and life less...the entrance of the horns..there are hairpins and dynamics not being played or played incorrectly (1:05) wrong horn sound for debussy.
Bassoon solo at 1:30...does not really sound like a bassoon and also no phrasing. Wrong color for debussy...
in general the samples are not suited for debussy...not light and bright. It sounds devoid of the french impressionic style.
Shall I go on [:)]
I think the software/samples is great for the effects type glisses and the such which is why this example sounds pretty nice.

Like I said I am impressed..very impressed but lets not call his work musicianship at the highest level but certainly not slight his work. I retract the statement about "punching it out"....it is more than that...not great "musicianship" but nice ears and skills.

@nafai23 said:

If you want me to listen to this as a real performance and real musicianship...
well to start...the first oboe solo (30 secs)....phrasing is terrible...monotone and life less...the entrance of the horns..there are hairpins and dynamics not being played or played incorrectly (1:05) wrong horn sound for debussy.
Bassoon solo at 1:30...does not really sound like a bassoon and also no phrasing. Wrong color for debussy...
in general the samples are not suited for debussy...not light and bright. It sounds devoid of the french impressionic style.
Shall I go on [:)]

Nafai,

I have 10 recordings of La Mer and not one of them gets everything right. In fact they are full of incorrect tempi, misjudged balancing, suspect intonation, 'fluffed' phrasing, inappropriate dynamics and even wrong notes. I think you are creating an image of the symphony orchestra that few can live up to.

Andy.

Those recordings are choices....phrasing choices...human beings making choices and mistakes.
the bassoon and oboe sound like trash because of limitation in the samples and software.
You did not choose for that bassoon to sound like that.
As a conductor you might say...bassoon lead more from beat 3 to 1 and play with a more legiere french sound.
You got what you could out of the performance.
and you did a stunning job using the tools you had....

@nafai23 said:

Like I said I am impressed..very impressed but lets not call his work musicianship at the highest level but certainly not slight his work. I retract the statement about "punching it out"....it is more than that...not great "musicianship" but nice ears and skills.

OK, I think I see the problem. Something that you would only be able to judge having actually tried to do this sort of work: To get samples, which by their very nature have to be quite uniform, to express anything at all, takes musicality on the highest level. The result is maybe NOT a performance 'on the highest level', compared with a good real orchestral one. Let me use a silly example: To play the oboe part on a blade of grass between one's fingers would be almost impossible. But I'm saying that someone with sufficient musicality - not just grass-playing skills - could get a result that's impressive - but still CONSIDERING it's a blade of grass!

I still insist that it takes music-making on the highest level, true musical intelligence and feeling, to get La Mer to sound this close - USING SAMPLES.
But as I say, you would only understand this if you tried. I can only say that out of everything I've done, trying to mould music out of samples was the hardest challenge I've untertaken. I don't mean technically but musically. Apologies to the VSL team, but it isn't easy. Using these tools, that's about as close as you can get at the moment, I'd say.
When I did the Hans Gal excerpts (needed for an exhibition on his music) I refused to leave it at 'that's as good as we can get it with samples', and we played the string parts 'live' over the top, mixed in. This helped. But of course there are clumsy moments which couldn't be fixed using these tools. I guess that's why this library is constantly in development.

So I'm saying that given a difficult instrument to play, you need to be a true musician to still be able to express something. But I understand now, 'the highest level' should be applied to what's needed to get this result, and not to the result itself compared to top performances of this music by world-class orchestras.

It's easy to forget the 'real world' when spending time in a virtual one!

Simon

Again we were posting at the same time, so most of what I said above has become redundant! [:D]

you guys are making me waste my day here!!! [[:)]]

I wanted to make another comment about something andy said....intonation...
that is one reason why the stuff sound fake to me. Orchestra performances are not even tempered...depending on the chords we lower thirds and sixths and raise fifth...etc.etc.etc.....
so the pitch sounds artifical to me on the VSL version.
one day will they have a solution for this...I am sure.
another thing that might start a war in the musicians that would do these samples...you are not getting the best of the best here...that is all I will say. If you were an accomplished pro bassoonist or oboist would you cut your own throat for a few bucks to make a sample cd.....if you needed the work maybe? [[:)]]

[quote=nafai23]Those recordings are choices....phrasing choices...human beings making choices and mistakes./quote]

I'll often create mistakes in a midi mock-up to make it sound more convincing as I'm well aware that perfomers are human beings - but every time I hear a mistake when my music's actually performed, it tears me to pieces. Your argument is that the mock-up doesn't sound human enough, but can I tell you, as a composer, that I'm not happy about a lot of the human elements that can often maim a piece of mine - how many times have you read stories about composers weeping after a first performance? It's often a trade off with samples - what you might lose in sonic expressiveness, you gain in complete control, for example.
You question the quality of the musicians involved, asking is this the best of the best? Well I ask how many have access to the best of the best? - how many even have access to an orchestra? Samples are providing an incredible opportunity for everyone to realise thier compositions - OK it may never get as good as the real thing, but that's not what's important - samples are liberating composers.

Andy.

agreed...an excellent tool for composers....your comments about human musicians are very disturbing to me but i think we will not agree , we are from two different worlds on that issue
but yes for composers a good tool, why do you think I am even posting here, obviously I am into the technology...I was just referring to the debussy.
Not referring to you but in general...
I have worked with composers that are comtrolling and do not want any personal input into the music. Most of them come off looking like novices....
the truly great modern composers would never have these feelings toward personal input and "mistakes"
I agree with your last statement though

@nafai23 said:

you guys are making me waste my day here!!! [:)]

Well, I'll go the foot of our stairs! Sorry you've wasted your day.

I'll ask you again. Do you use VSL and if you do, or any other library for that matter, what do you use it for?

The point here is, nobody cares if it sounds fake in purist terms. Its (La Mere) for the purpose of showing what can be achieved with the current technology. Its about mocking up Film/TV scores before, and indeed if, an orchestra is used, or indeed necessary. Its about the economic distribution of money. A hobbyist probably wouldn't care one way or the other.

This so-called fake business has no relevance at all, when making comparisons with real live orchestral performances. Nobody cares that anyone went to this or that music college when a directors phoning you up every 5 minutes wanting to know if 'its ready yet'. The audience watching the film/tv show, wouldn't care either, unless its rank bad music (see other discussion elsewhere in this forum).

I am really offended by the classical music snobbery expressed by nafai23 and that's what this is really about. I have been exposed to precisely this kind of thinking in other forms and am disgusted by it.

For your information sir, you're not the only one who has played in symphony orchestras on this forum. I have played horn for twenty years in symphony, opera, symphonic band, brass choir, chamber ensemble and solo, and my background is 100% traditional hand written composition/theory/orchestration.

What you do not, cannot and will not understand, is that sampling is not a way of replacing instruments, but of recording them. Your repeated insistence that this is not as good as a live performance is pointless, because one can make the exact same statement about any given recording in existence.

I'm finished with this, because there is no dealing with a closed mind.

@nafai23 said:

...you are not getting the best of the best here...that is all I will say. If you were an accomplished pro bassoonist or oboist would you cut your own throat for a few bucks to make a sample cd.....if you needed the work maybe? [:)]

this conclusion is simply not true. without any insight to our work it's probably hard to understand, why a accomplished pro bassoonist or oboist will go all the way to the silent stage just to cut his own throat. we are not going to share all our secrets, but i can asure you, one reason why it's very well possible to get the best of the best is - vienna.
i don't know, where you are from, nafai23, but forget everything, you believe to know about sampling: viennese musicians are very special guys, and believe me: there is a higher spirit behind the Vienna Symphonic Library than only racing for a few bucks...

all the best, michael hula

haha..I knew it would get ugly...time for me to leave
this post was about a piece of symphonic literature that was programmed using VSL instruments and calling that "musicianship at the highest level"...not mock ups, not the benefits of having this at home for mockups etc...
I have agreeded with all the benefits for mock ups...
I see alot of you are from the UK...talk the people in Les Miserables in london that are about to lose there jobs being replaced half by a virtual orchestra because the producers profits are not enough for those summer homes in tuscany. They have families..most of them are at the highest level of musicianship....they are gone...no job...
I will not even go into the situation here in NY.
Please to not preach about the tech being for only mock-ups.
anyway..this snob will leave you guys alone now. I think the tech is great and andy did a great job of displaying that. This just got off topic.
good luck to all and good bye

@nafai23 said:

haha..I knew it would get ugly...time for me to leave

I see alot of you are from the UK...talk the people in Les Miserables in london that are about to lose there jobs being replaced half by a virtual orchestra because the producers profits are not enough for those summer homes in tuscany. They have families..most of them are at the highest level of musicianship....they are gone...no job...

Nafai,

It hasn't turned ugly - this forum contains people who are passionate about what they do and you have to except that people may disagree with you. Technology has been puting people out of work for centuries. I don't think it's a good thing - I had a TV gig last year that involved using an orchestra. When the producers heard the VSL mock-ups I had to be quite persuasive in getting them to go ahead with using the real thing. I agree people are losing their jobs, but I don't think that I would have a job in music without this technology - so it's also creating them as well......

Andy.

@PaulR said:

Nobody cares that anyone went to this or that music college.

Now wait a minute. I went to California State University at Long Beach (kind of like your Liverpool Paul - harbor town) doesn't that count for something? Someone has got to be impressed with that - please...

No takers huh?

Well they got lots of nice boats down there. Big ones too. In fact the Queen Mary is there. How come we Yanks always end up with old bloated British cast-offs?

Am I off topic btw?

Dave Connor

P.S. Paul, any good musicians ever come out of Liverpool?