hehe a massive question it is indeed [[[;)]]]

I'm just figuring out different approaches of doing a tv theme while having almost no info about the show... I may have the opportunity to present a demo for an upcoming tv show of the E.R-Chicago Hope-all emergency systems in one kind-of... but that's what I can know as far... so that leaves it all to my own imagination (I don't know if it will be a fast paced tv show or more character based...) so I'd like to present something in between... or even something completely original, out of the cliché-type "E.R. themes"...

But in fact... I don't know how to begin [[[;)]]] From the tests I have done I can say that am not very satisfied, and I am wondering if maybe there could be a sort of technique or way of creating something like this... after all I would prefer to rely on my imagination rather than basing me on previous soundtracks of this kind...

I'd really appreciate some advice from you guys [[[;)]]]

Thks!

It is difficult to satisfy someone else rather than yourself. You could try to be original, and come up with something good, but they may not understand it because they are complete idiots. This happens every day. So you have to decide if you want the job enough to write a copy of something else, or want recognition for your own music.

@William said:

It is difficult to satisfy someone else

Exactly. Thats why a lot of musicians build up there own 'libraries' of material over a period of time. Then one could draw on, hopefully, different genres to suit a given film or Tv situation.

Ask them to suggest a temp track (which nobody likes of course) but at least it would give you an idea of the mood they want.

I've never heard of this situation before. I mean, not even seeing rough cuts or anything.

The idea of using Leitmotifs in TV is a little overboard I think. The best TV music, (once you get into the field full force), is mud. These days anyway. You get good at writing mush. If you can incorporate leitmotifs into that I think that's more power to you. But once you start getting your royalty checks and you notice you are making more money on the projects where you were watered down to pure mud, you'll soon catch on and likely skip trying to be intelligent in TV. Producers hate intelligent music. And it's very hard to "slip" intelligence by an intelligent producer who has intelligently decided that intelligent music will not be acceptable. it's hard enough to keep a show on air for more than 2 weeks. It must be really mushy inert neutral music to make a show watcheable by the masses. Remember the 2% of the country you actually know, is not the 98% of the rest of the country living by the bayou. lol. (Now I'm going to get hate mail from people here who lived by the bayou!)

One fundamental flaw with a message we were taught when we were growing up is that we are NOT all equal. Sure we are under an equal umbrella of society and everyone is "treated" equally, but when it comes down to it, people are ultimately different from one another. That is the greatest thing about nature.

So I think one must "believe" in marketing music to those other than oneself. And when you get into it, it works out that most of the world's people are just couch potatoes.

I am a VSL potato myself!

Evan Evans

I agree very much with Evans indictment of the intelligence /quality issue when it comes to most TV music. There are some exceptions but far too few.

Ivan,

Here's my experience. You could spend 20 hours on a great piece of music that would be perfect for the show. Then 1 hour on some groove thing that has a little electric piano and synth pad - very simple. You play them for the client and they love the groove thing.

Create several basic ideas and play them all for the client. If they jump on one then you can re-tool it toward their specifications. If YOU particularly love one of your ideas, polish it up and make it sound broadcast ready. That will impress them and show your ability to deliver quality music even if they don't think it's right for the show. Play the quality one for them first. Then say, here are several other basic ideas that could be developed and polished.

If you can find out if there's a theme that they love (ER or whatever) then you can try and get that vibe going for them on one or more of your demos.

Don't be afraid to make a highly personal statement musically and don't worry about shamelessly copying someone else's work. You are serving their needs first in order to meet your own in the process.

Good Luck,

Dave Connor

This thread reminds of a motto we have at our shop...

"Give them quality...whether they want it or not."

Easier said than done, sometimes.

Or as it says on a poster given to me by a client (which for a long time I kept hanging just within sight of my workstation)..."Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once, and you suck forever."

[:D]

Fred Story
Concentrix Music and Sound Design
www.concentrixmusic.com

Seems my words are not as radical as I worried about. That's a load off.

Fred, you said it. It's real hard to sneak anything good through anymore in TV. There's just too many eager composers willing to write something trashier to please the producer, lined up with their "agents" calling every day.

It works out to be, in TV, the composer is the technician who spends the time making what the producer wanted to spend time making but didn't have enough time to do. But somehow he always has enough time to tell you it's wrong and hire someone else.

[:)]

Evan Evans

I assume most of the comments about TV music apply to weekly drama, comedy or "reality" episodics. (The quotation marks will be the extent of my editorial comment on Reality TV.)

But, one area of TV music where we've had good luck is documentaries. We've scored stuff for PBS, Discovery Channel, A & E, Court TV, etc. For the most part these directors and producers are almost religiously committed to telling their stories well: and most often the director or producer we're working with has final say-so on music. We've even developed remarkable collaborative relationships with many. They ask for our ideas, and they listen.

Another thing to consider is that some TV just doesn't DEMAND a great deal of artistry. For example, the 3 composers in our shop share scoring duties for a weekly show on Food TV. We're entering our 5th season now (and each season is 26 episodes!). The show travels around the country looking for interesting, off-the-beaten-path food items that can be ordered by viewers. Simple idea. Simple execution. Very popular show. Music simply needs to reflect the flavor (if you'll pardon the pun) of the locale, the personality of the purveyors, or sometimes the ethnicity of the people or foods. (An entire show was shot in Puerto Rico, for example, and it was a fun challenge to make an authentic Puerto Rican bomba rhythm the basis for every cue.) Our job is to keep it lively, keep it fun, keep it interesting. Not only is it a GREAT steady gig, but the Producers are a dream to work with. A couple of the shows have even won Telly's.

So don't take my little aphorisms as a blanket indictment of music for TV. Sure, we all aspire to the heights of artistic achievment in film, concert music, or whatever...as we all should. In the meantime, there are things we can learn...and bills we can pay...working for the small screen. Nothing wrong with that.

Fred Story

@Another User said:

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once, and you suck forever

i really like that one - is there a photo by chance?
christian

Christian,

My copy is simply black text on white, 8 x 10. I suppose some statements don't need graphic embellishment. [:D]

Fred Story

wow, thank you all for your answers! I think they are really helpful by focusing it in the business aspect rather than the compositional one... in fact this is what I needed... the fact that I know so little about this project is just because I am only being able to present a demo to the producers but they haven't really requested that from me, only the contact I have is good enough as it can give me more (or some [[;)]]) chance of getting the job, so that's why I was wondering if I should present myself as more functional or as more original... [[;)]]

Thank you for everything... if anyone else would like to offer more opinions, please be welcome!

Regards,

Ivan.

Ivan,

If I may offer just ONE more aphorism...

In show biz there's only one hard and fast rule. Everything's negotiable.

Sounds like you have a nice opportunity. Heaven knows careers were launched with lesser opportunities! Best of luck to you.

Okay, I lied. ANOTHER one the staff gets tired of hearing me spout...

...Good work always speaks for itself.

Fred Story

Fred -
I love that quote. Even though it is funny, it is an exact transcription of what the great Russian film director Tarkovsky seriously said: "Once you start down the path of mediocrity and compromise there is no turning back." Also, I agree very much with what you said about documentaries - they seem to be the one area of tv production where a composer is given some freedom to do something decent.

Evan -
"Producers hate intelligent music. And it's very hard to "slip" intelligence by an intelligent producer who has intelligently decided that intelligent music will not be acceptable."

This is so true. I have experienced this to my shock, firsthand. At least I thought it was intelligence. I was desperately thinking about many musical questions that this person didn't care the slightest about and couldn't have any more than a flatworm could have cared about the General Theory of Relativity - though yes, I may have been mistaken and he was actually a genius who saw through my complete artistic failure and wanted only the best for his brilliant, inspired work. No, on second thought that's highly unlikely.

Anyway, you have summed up exactly the state of television music (and a lot of other highly commercial music also).

William,

Thanks. It's so true. However, what the other fellow (or maybe it was you) said about Documentaries and such is true. They compete to be of the highest quality about 30% of the time. yes teh percentage is low, but 30% of Documentaries is enough to have a little hope. However, I recently wrote an incredible score to American Almanacs: A Living History, and the music was mixed so low, I was just stunned. I sort of just let it go. You have to. I said, it loked and sounded great. NEXT PROEJCT PLEASE. [:)]

Evan Evans

there's some great information here, really useful.

But as far as the mud vs. art discussion goes....if you can make a living by making music, you could probably consider yourself a lucky person (I do).

If you want to be a no-compromise artist then you might have to look for a day job in the meantime. That's not to say it's a black or white situation- "mud" gig or "art" gig- but I can still recall the thrill of my first comission.
It was for a film about a factory making rubber gloves. I had a ball!!

In the years since then, I often veer between thinking I'm doing something very cool , fulfilling and creative, and thinking I'm another kind of "service provider". I too have had the experience of having my music mixed badly,re-cut....whatever. It hurts, there's a little bit of my soul in there.....but you have to move on and write the next tune. Jeff Rona has some mature advice about this...he also has some very useful words about demoing and pitching for jobs:
http://jeffrona.com/reelworldmag/february00aesthetics.html
and
http://www.jeffrona.com/reelworldmag/nov01viddemo.html

I think that those of us who are fortunate to be established in some way - that means, working regularly - occasionally get a little worn down by the business. Happens. That could be the time to start looking around for maybe a short film, perhaps a student film, a low/no budget documentary, or even make a start on your own opera (or similar). Thta's not to say that "non-commercial" or even "badly paid" work brings any special freedom with it. in fact, sometimes the opposite is true: amateurs and cheapskates, however talented or untalented, sometimes expect more blood than the mainstream guys, who don't take everything so damn seriously.But variety, and a change of pace, is refreshing.

But, starting out - which is what the original post was touching on- any work is really good work, because you learn so much about how music works with picture, relationships with directors / producers / editors, how to handle a deadline, business negotiation, and so much more. Not to mention that you probably can't help improving as a musician every day you get to make music.

So I think the discussion mud vs. art - with all respect guys, 'cos i know you're old hands - is relative.....first there comes the gig.

the gig be praised!!!!

Of course, when you get the gig, you wanna do something FANTASTIC!!! If they don't like it, file it away and you can use it sometime later [[;)]] .

I'm so happy to be part of this community.


Nigel

@evanevans said:

The idea of using Leitmotifs in TV is a little overboard I think. The best TV music, (once you get into the field full force), is mud.

Hello everyone! The mention of motifs in television brought the original Batman Animated Series to mind (including Mask of the Phantasm). Anyone want to comment? I know, I know, it was a cartoon, but it had some of the best music I've heard on television. Every villain had his/her own theme, besides the main Batman theme, which was originally rather derivitive of Danny Elfman's theme but developed and soon took on a life of its own. Even Robin and Batgirl had their own themes.

~Chris

Nigel

I agree with what you're saying and appreciate hearing from your experience. The greatest composers who have ever written for film in the past were as desperate for the next gig as anyone today. I remember reading what Herrmann said (a little pathetically) later on - "The new guys want me!" It was after he got hired on a film in the 70s. He was so happy to get a job after a dry spell. Startling, from today's perspective. But it is all too normal in the dog-eat-dog business of film scoring. I suppose you have to somehow keep those ideals of pure music that inspired you to begin with consciously in mind, while pursuing the next morsel of food.

On a note related to the original topic, TV themes, I wonder if anyone knows of the composer Dominic Frontiere. I consider his Outer Limits (original) music, which was used only in the first season of that great series, to be the finest music ever written for television. It is astounding how it completely alters the nature of the filmed scene it is associated with. In fact, it is a remarkable example of just what music can do to a scene. Joseph Stefano who wrote "Psycho's" screenplay and who was the producer/principal writer on the series said:

"In Outer Limits episodes I'd written, often I would hear through Dominic's music thoughts and feelings I hadn't even ever experienced before. A wallflowery line of dialogue would suddenly blossom into a thing of unsuspected beauty. A throwaway remark would take on staggering import. It was awe-inspiring. I wanted to discover the country Dominic's music had taken my screenplay to. The music takes me not backward, but forward. Sometimes while listening I'll catch a glimpse of a star's face, an eerie setting, an unsettling effect. Quickly though, the image dissolves and there remains only the music, free of the film moment responsible for its birth, an entity in and of itself, pure, authentic, soul-meant.. It reaches into parts of me that were not yet born when I produced the Outer Limits."