Actually I prefer to reserve the term "bandied" for interesting uses, such as that above.

[:)]

Evan Evans

The website Dave refered to is a good resource, and Raksin's comments on his friends - many of the greatest film composers in history - are fascinating.

Dave, did you notice how his comments on Herrmann are a little skewed away from what Evan and I have been discussing on other threads about Herrmann? i.e., Raksin's statements about Herrmann's reliance on "sequences." I would not define them as being, as he implied, either "sequences" or a crutch.

I previously stated that Herrmann's use of simple motifs that can be repeated and expanded and varied through orchestration was a quintessential element of the purest film compositional technique. Evan also has mentioned this in some very interesting statements. Raksin implies that Herrmann was incapable of long, developed melodies and therefore used as a stopgap measure little motifs. But this is first of all not true, and secondly exactly why Herrmann is so great. First, listen for example to the end "Book People" theme in Fahrenheit 451. It is a melody that would have made Ravel proud. Secondly, his reduction of what is needed to motival elements with symphonic rather than leitmotif development is the essence of film scoring stripped of all that is unnecessary.

I think this is probably due to the fact that Raksin did not fully appreciate the difference because he is a more traditional composer than Herrmann. I don't mean to criticize Raksin as I think he is one of the greats. But often they are not fully aware of what their colleagues have done.

William,

David Raksin has been beating the drum about "melody" for as long as I've been aware of him. He considers it "Thee great gift." He is certainly qualified to comment on this as he is responsible for some of the great cinematic melodies. No doubt he fines the lack of tunes in BH's writing troublesome. I agree it may be true that it's an "approach" issue (for the most part) and that Hermann was capable of great melody.

Having encountered Mr. Raksin so many times, I have to say he is in possession of the most brilliant mind and it's doubtful that he is missing anything including what he considers the over use of sequences or any compositional device.

In the case of two great composers I bring it down to choices, philosophies, and not talent.

Turns out Raksin's favorite BH score is the same as mine: The Ghost and Mrs. Muir. Interesting in that Mr's Muir is probably his most melodic score. I think it's stunningly beautiful and perhaps confirms your point in fact.

Dave

Dave,

Very interesting response, as usual. I basically agree about melody. It is the one thing that you can do or not do and if you can, everything else is just technique. Also, I love Raksin's music and desperately want the complete score to "Night Tide" - my favorite film. However Ghost and Mrs. Muir is not Herrmann's greatest by a long shot. Though it is a beautiful score and is probably Raksin's favorite because of his love of longer melodies and the content of the film which is very charming and wistful.

But Herrrmann's greatest score is certainly "Vertigo." And this features his most characteristic style of shorter motifs rather than longer melodies, though he develops them into melodic sections in several parts notably the "Scene d'amour."

I called Raksin once. He was coincidentally listening to my dad playing Laura's theme right then and there. It freaked both him and I out. Anyway, I respect the man and love his music.

But I agree, he DID imply that Herrmann was incapeable of long melody. But jsut listen to teh high romantic string line which against the terse active strings underneath it creates the schizophrenic nature of Psycho. Or listen to Vertigo, it's not only melodic, it's like church music no less! Chords in the left hand and melody in the right. And finally Taxi Driver, played by Tom Scott on Alto. That's nothing but melody at times.

Evan Evans

I agree, Evan. Also, Jason and the Argonauts, main theme - a tremendous heroic melody. Or as I mentioned before - the end of Fahrenheit 451 - a gorgeous tune if ever there was one. Citizen Kane - the main, bustling theme. If tht's not a melody, I sure hope I can also NOT write melodies like that. Marnie - main theme. The Trouble With Harry - secondary lyrical theme (after the great simple 4 note motif) Or the Valse Lente from Obsession. And so on... the fact is, Herrmann so mastered the use of motifs that people mistakenly thought he couldn't write melodies.

Evan,

Amazing coincidence on the Raksin call. Even though us Bill Evans fans tend to have him on quite a bit. BTW his tracks with Jim Hall are sublime. I've Got You Under My Skin is the definition of great music, great jazz. Also the live track of How My Heart Sings from Montreaux is the apex of trio jazz.

William,

Would never offer Mrs. Muir as one of Benny's best ( because his best are such towering achievements) but rather a gorgeous score. It's still a lesson in film scoring to my thinking. I don't know if anyone matched the tone of a scene musically quite like him. North in Sparticus, Goldsmith in Patton come to mind. I think BH is unsurpassed in understanding what visuals call for: Day The Earth Stood Still a classic example.

Dave

I'd love to know where you got the score.

And second - Korngold was a teenager when he wrote Die Tote Stadt.

Actually Dave, I do think Ghost and Mrs. Muir is one of Herrmann's best, though it is difficult to decide what is on that list given the brilliance of all of his music.

Two Herrmann pieces I've recently noticed are the Souvenir de Voyage and Echoes. Have you heard those? They are beautiful later chamber works that reflect some of the film scores, notably Vertigo.

William,

I really like Echoes. Souvinirs is a little less than typical Herrmann and frankly a little boring like his Moby Dick Cantata. But come on, .. it's still THE MAN.

Echoes has been very inspirational to me. Mostly it gave me confidence that simple textural writing with modern harmony can still be classical. And that motivated me to write my own woodwind quartet that has similar harkenings.

Evan Evans

I agree. Echoes is a more inspired and serious musical work, the Souvenirs a lighter, more "pleasant" sounding piece.

Have you heard his Symphony? I cannot get into it. It seems a failure to me, though maybe I need to try it again. Very unlike his film music, which is instantly genius from the first second to the last. I believe that though he felt a need to write concert music, as it is more "respectable" he was born to do film music and his genius really came alive when doing it.

Eric Korngold 1897-1957

"Korngold continued working, and in 1920 completed his most celebrated operatic work, Die Tote Stadt, which was an immediate hit in Cologne (where it was premiered under the baton of Otto Klemperer) and the rest of the German speaking world and quickly entered the repertory of Covent Garden in London and the Metropolitan Opera in New York." Unofficial website.

William,

My point on BH's Mrs. Muir score is that I don't think it's as groundbreaking a score as are so many of his. It's my personal favorite, so in that sense to me, it is one of his best. Many of his scores are these pinnacles in film scoring and cited by many as the apex of the art. In this context I wouldn't offer Mrs. Muir which is more traditional in it's approach. Still a great score by any standard.

Also, not familiar with the works you mentioned except 1st symph which I haven't heard in ages but as I recall, I liked.

DC

@William said:

Have you heard his Symphony? I cannot get into it. It seems a failure to me, though maybe I need to try it again.

Yes. Of course. Let's get something straight, my friend,...I have heard EVERYTHING of Bernard Herrmann's. [;)]

i see what you mean. It is a little contrived. it felt too obvious too me. There wasn't enough subtlety.

Absolutely bar none hands down the best two concert works by Herrmann are the CONCERTO MACABRE and the thing he did for 3 violins doing the Jack in the Box theme.

Those two works make his concert career respectable. They are untoucheable pinnacles of mastery within their categories.

Evan Evans

Here's a very good brief biographical synopsis of Korngold.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5490/Korngold.html

DC.

William,

You being far more knowlegable about BH and film music in general than I. Tell me: was Mrs. Muir something new in film score at the time? I really don't know. I know it's one of the best Main Titles I ever heard, and a perfect score. But I don't know how it fits in the history of film in importance. Was it late 30's early 40's?

Do Tell.

DC

@dpcon said:

Was it late 30's early 40's?DC

Hiya Dave, Bill and Evan,

From memory, The Ghost and Mrs Muir was released in 1946/47 and bombed at the box-office. Post-war romantic stuff with Gene Tierney and Rex Harrison. A lot of films released at that time that didn't do well, are now considered classics i.e ( A Matter of Life and Death, Black Narcissus, Its a Wonderful Life (great score, often overlooked) etc). Historically, its put down to the fact that audiences all over the world at that time, wanted comedic, uplifting, easy to understand stuff (insulting? maybe!)

What Herrmann did quite brilliantly, was, instead of using tried and trusted 'ghostly' type scoring (a la The Ghost goes West, Blythe Spirit, etc), he actually took a romantic view re: the score. Also, I remember ( because one listens for these things re: Herrmann) the scoring on the seascape scene, is worth consideration as a seperate musical entity on its own in my view.

I can't tell you much more ( I caught the film on TV recently) except it was Herrmann's seventh score, I think, for Twentieth Century Fox and if the dates are correct, it comes just six years after Citizen Kane of course, which gives perhaps an irellevent historic perspective on Herrmanns advancement within the film music culture of the day. For what its worth, its not my favourite Herrmann score, but to me, the word favourite when used in conjunction with Herrmann doesn't really have any meaning. Its like wondering where people get copies of composers scores from.

I'm sure Bill can fill in any details (sorry to butt in Bill, but I knew you'd be asleep). [:P]

I've become affected so much by this discussion, that I now have Bernard Herrmann on a 33 cents stamp as my current computer wallpaper.

Enjoying [:)]

Actually Dave, Evan could probably give as much or more than I on Herrmann - he knows the subject, that's for sure. But I agree with Paul and think that Ghost and Mrs. Muir was the earliest film in which I'd heard such an "impressionist" treatment of the sea. The main title, with its sinuous inner contrapuntal line accompanied by the long-held melodic motif is particularly striking and utterly unlike any other film music I've heard from films of that period or before.

Now that we've talked about it I'm going to have to get out that LP and listen to it. If ony I could find it among the other 10,000.

Evan - have you heard "Silent Noon?" I'm not testing you, just wondering what you think of it since oddly enough I was just listening to that last night. Very obscure early concert piece of Herrmann's. It is very interesting because though his style is less in evidence it is a somewhat "metaphysical" sounding piece. No drama, but no obvious impressionism either. The only comparison I can think of is Holst's "Egdon Heath" though it is not as mature or radical a work.

Sorry to switch this from Korngold to Herrmann. The old obsession again. And I was trying to control it.

@Another User said:

Evan - have you heard "Silent Noon?"

Oh yes. It's fantastic. So eerie. I loved it, and still do. It is so personally Herrmann. H eput a lot into the rhythm aspect of writing, and that is what a lot of people let slip by them. Psycho was not so much a masterpice of orchestration, but of rhythm and form. his form was optimal, and as such he was able to write a concerto underneath 3 or 4 scenes in perfect form. A genius that will never be recognized for the level of genius he was. He wrote in pen and never erased, mind you. he's like my Dad! My dad played the most unbelievable stuff his whole life an dnever made a single damn mistake! People hit their heads against the walls because of people like that!

It's a level I DO NOT take for granted and that I personally champion as one fo the greatest achievements in music. Herrmann was one of the top 10 composers who ever lived. That's how I see it.

[[[:)]]]

Evan Evans

P.S. korngold is good too. [[[:)]]]

Don't get me going on Bill Evans, I'm liable to start a thread. But since this is a Korngold thread that has invited comments on the genius of Bernard Herrmann, suffice to say:

Bill Evans: melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, compositional, genius of the highest magnitude. The quintessential jazz pianist and musician. The mold.

I would mention him if Evan's last name was Schultz. When he's brought up around me (and so very many others) he becomes the topic. Nick Batzdorf and I were talking nothing but VSL, EXS, GIGA, etc., at lunch the other day. When Bill's name came up (perhaps an Evan reference) the conversation crested with great effusion over this great musician. It just lifted totally. Pure magic that guy. He's probably as good and capable a musician that's ever walked the earth. The greatest composers were also the greatest improvisers (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven) Bill is unsurpassed in that art in the 20th century. If you factor in the concept of "feel" he stands alone among all great musicians. That's some kind of pedigree Evan has there.

Well, I know the guy that started this thread isn't gonna rag on me for going off topic.

Dave Connor