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  4. Pure Analog vs. Orchestral Sampling

  • Pure Analog vs. Orchestral Sampling

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    I was wondering what anyone thought about the concept of pure analog synthesis as an "authentic" sound and how it compares to the best orchestral sampling such as VSL in relation to individual expression.

    The analog synthesizer - successor to the great original electronic instruments (Ondes Martenot and Theremin which were both similarly complex and beautiful in their timbres) - was abused in its early life (and probably suffered Freudian difficulties) by being forced to fake orchestras in cheap TV and film scores.

    However, the real analog sound, when not made to imitate other sounds, is a unique timbre of its own, as complex as that of a violin, and it comes close to the ideal of providing a composer with "all possibilites" of sound in an ever-changing way. This is remarkably similar to the symphony orchestra. The specific type of analog synthesizer I'm talking about is the Moog which was the greatest and still exists in the form of the "Voyager" instrument.

    It is interesting to contrast the tonal possibilites of complex musical sound - not digital fakery - created by an actual analog of this kind, with the complexities of the VSL based upon orchestral instruments. The reason I mention this is that both of these creations offer the individual composer what Forsyth said was the ultimate goal of musical instrument design - total control over a hugely variable musical sound. Though they are radically different in origin and technical approach, I find myself attracted magnetically to both of these mediums.
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    Well there are quite a few examples of this concept working very well.

    TRON (Wendy Carlos)
    CLOCKWORK ORANGE (Wendy Carlos)
    MISS WONTON (Evan Evans) Full Score in MP3 Format
    RISKY BUSINESS (Tangerine Dream)
    LEGEND (Tangerine Dream)
    BLADE RUNNER (Vangelis)
    1492: CONQUEST OF PARADISE (Vangelis)
    THE BOUNTY (Vangelis)
    IT'S ALIVE & IT'S ALIVE 2 (Bernard Herrmann)
    CRIMINAL LAW (Jerry Goldsmith)

    This is just off the top of my head. I am sure with research I could come up with 4 times as many.

    I personally love this approach (as maybe you can hear in the heartfelt music of MISS WONTON). And it winds up being a very artistic combination when combined with certain imagery.

    Evan Evans
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    Also just remembered:

    WITNESS (Maurice Jarre)
    ENEMY MINE (Maurice Jarre)
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    [quote=evanevans]WITNESS (Maurice Jarre)

    Yes. The (musical) bit I remember particularly is when everyone clubs together to build a barn for some newlyweds and Harrison Ford does his carpentry thing. I thought that was a real orchestra from memory. Didn't realise it may have been synthesizers. Its a while ago since I've seen it, so there must be a subliminal thing here.

    One of the most famous ones would be Forbidden Planet for the use of early electronic music. Very effective.
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    VSL Team
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    Isao Tomita comes to mind, even if it's the contrary concept your wrote about, William. His work involved me deeper into "classical" music than many, many "real" recordings (back then, as a 14-year old).

    And don't forget Oskar Sala's incredible work with the Mixturtrautonium (e.g. for Hitchcock, if it has to be a filmscore).

    /Dietz
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    Yes, Tomita is an excellent example because what he was doing, even though marketed as a pseudo-orchestral substitute, was actually an original sound unique to the huge modular analog synthesizers he used.

    I knew of the Birds score however did not realize it was a Trautonium the first models of which predate the Ondes Martenot.

    By the way the kind of thing we are mentioning is similar to what Edgar Varese did in the Poeme Electronique even though he did not have any technology of sampling. He was using tape recordings that were snipped and looped in various ways along with some tone generators. It is still a fascinating work due to Varese's genius overcoming the technical limitations. He seems like one of those composers of the past who would have gone wild with samplers.
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    This is another example of advanced use of analog synth vs. orchestra that came to mind - I wonder if anyone has noticed it also - the score to Blade Runner. Though I think that Vangelis does write some things that are very repetitious and too simple, nevertheless he always struck me as an absolute master of the synthesizer. No matter what technology existed at the time, he was capable of getting a good sound out of it while most everyone else created embarrassing and dated nonsense.

    The score to Blade Runner is a particularly vivid example because the movie's actual soundtrack uses his synthesizer score, but they put out a widely circulated "Soundtrack Album" that was a full symphony orchestra playing a transcription that sounded TERRIBLE. Maybe the first time in the history of music that ever happened - an orchestra unsuccessfully trying to emulate a synthesizer.
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    How could I forget FORBIDDEN PLANET and THE BIRDS. Thanks.

    Evan Evans
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    @PaulR said:

    One of the most famous ones would be Forbidden Planet for the use of early electronic music. Very effective.


    Thank you Paul.

    This may be the most forward looking electronic score of them all (no question for it's time, late 50's). Not a melodic vein in it, but as fulfilling the purpose of score, perfect. The score takes you right into the future and right into space. No sentimentality or operatic sweep, just the vast cold scientific realm of space, i.e. the future.

    Not a cold film though (indeed it's core message is human fallibility.) This film is also the father of the modern Star/wars/trek films. A great American film that really hasn't lost much along the way and indeed remains far more profound than most it's progeny.

    Dave Connor
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    How about "Runaway" the JGoldsmith scored futuristic SciFi cop movie starring Tom Selleck - terrific score.

    btw I think Jerry is by far the best integrater of synths with acoustic instruments in an orchestral setting. He used to hand guys his own memory cards of sounds (for say DX7.) Usually at least four synths would be seated among the players. He had an uncanny ability to make it all sound organic. I can't say enough about that guy's true genius. Since I spent a fair amount of time hanging out with him I can tell you he's a dear dear guy. Not at all full of himself like some other affected speaking "legends."

    Uh oh... now I feel like attacking someone....where's Evan?

    Dave Connor
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    @Another User said:

    Uh oh... now I feel like attacking someone....where's Evan?
    He he. ... (distant) "here I am!" .... "come and get me!"

    [:)]

    Evan Evans
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    @dpcon said:

    How about "Runaway" the JGoldsmith scored futuristic SciFi cop movie starring Tom Selleck - terrific score.


    Yes. Way before that even (Runaway) he's done the score to Logans Run, which has a sort of throw back to Forbidden Planet(Mood, not necessarily sounds). I don't want to get too far off Williams original post re: pure analog synthesis as an "authentic" sound. Electronic music from the likes of Karlheinz Stockhausen and Varese certainly have their place. But when you take Louis and Bebe Barrons score to Forbidden Planet (based on Shakespeares The Tempest btw) this goes some way to addressing Williams original point imo.

    Composers used other techniques before this to get that sort of effect. I'm thinking of Bernard Herrmanns score to The Day the Earth Stood Still. This of course is not using 'electronics' but very original scoring techniques, for the time. Also, much later, the same brilliance for the score to Fahrenheit 451. Incredible to think of now, but most of these films were classed as 'B' movies. But there you are. You could experiment more with sound and film because presumably there was not the financial stress that a feature film might demand.

    Some composers almost make you think they're using synthesizers, like Alexander Courage's theme to the original Star Trek series. More clever stuff from Leith Stevens (I think?) with the score to War of the Worlds.

    But Jerry Goldsmith, I agree, has to be one of the most comprehensive writers in this genre. Alien is the one that always springs to mind. I'm not actually sure if he combines conventional orchestra with synthesizers, but it sounds like he does. Thats a creepy score that makes what is actually a recycled plot (alien on spacecraft etc) stand out from the crowd.

    Williams point regarding Moogs. It's almost as if this type of instrument was created to fulfill a need for orchestral musicians, although history tells us that it became more the domain of rock/jazz musicians. At least, they bought it to the fore, as I recall (and its bloody tuning problems). Dr Moog apparently made his first home-made Theremin with his old man in 1954 according to my SOS mag (on its way, Dave). 50 year anniversary re: electronics for him. Fantastic.

    As a side issue, I understand that Kurzweil are bringing out a virtual analogue synthesiser soon. That, if its good, combined with VSL, for the sounds that we've been discussing on this thread, will certainly interest me.

    I would like to hear Alex North's 2001 soundtrack. I'm not sure if this falls into the category we are discussing here, although I understand he and Goldsmith were close colleagues and friends.

    Jealous. I would liked to meet Jerry Goldsmith. Who wouldn't. Please arrange this for me at once, Dave. [[:)]]

    Anyway, good topic William, once again. Thank God one of us is still sane. Enjoyable discussion.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by dpcon
    Uh oh... now I feel like attacking someone....where's Evan?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    He he. ... (distant) "here I am!" .... "come and get me!"

    Evan, your'e madder than a box of frogs. [[:)]]
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    I've just thought of another one, where the music is in the same vein.

    The Anderson Tapes with the music by Quincy Jones.
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    Actually I' m just as crazy but more effective at repressing it. At least most of the time...

    I'm glad Forbidden Planet has been mentioned. Not only the greatest Sci-Fi film of all time (along with 2001) but also a fascinating score. It completely short circuits all other film music up to that time. It was called "Electronic Tonalities" only because conventional thinking demanded that, though it is pure atonal music generated by unique circuitry desgined specifically for the score. This was one of the most inspiring and purest examples of what I was talking about, because it shows how analog sound can be as distinctive and complex as acoustic instruments.

    Logan's Run was also a wonderful score - another of those stand-out creations of Goldsmith that make the film so much better than it would have been without. Though it is more of an integration of analog sounds into an orchestral context, similar to Day the Earth Stood Still with its electric organs, two theremins, and electric violin integrated into an ensemble of brass and percussion.

    Somehow the virtual analog instruments irritate me. There are several new real analogs - Moog has the Voyager as well as theremins and the "Moogerfooger" modules which allow together the contruction of a full modular system like the Old Ones. And there is the Alesis "Andromeda" keyboard complete with ribbon controller. To me it is insipid of companies to make a virtual analog synthesizer simply because some twit gets upset as a result of his analog going out of tune or blowing out a transistor. What would such a player do with a broken violin string? Throw out the violin I suppose. But the fact they are doing fakes proves the "authenticity" of the original sound as much as a digital sample of a string section does.
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    @William said:

    simply because some twit gets upset as a result of his analog going out of tune or blowing out a transistor.


    Ouch!

    I'm going to throw the name of Delia Derbyshire at you. What do you know of her?
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    Sorry Paul but I know nothing of Delia Derbyshire. Is she a twit, or did she blow her transistors?
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    Delia Derbyshire was one of the greatest pioneers of electronic music: ever. Thats not just my opinion, thats a fact.

    She joined the BBC Radiophonic Workshop in 1963. She'd got a degree in Music and Maths from Cambridge University. Everything she did musically was done without synthesizers. She hated synthesizers. No mulitracks. Just objects she blew or hit or whatever, cut up tape and oscillators. She regarded as what she did as an experimentation of psycho-acoustics. She had a brilliant mind.

    I remember a piece called Dreams which is just pure electronic music and sounds. Its better than brilliant. She spent 11 or 12 years at the Radiophonic Workshop and did hundreds of programs' music for the BBC.

    You can't talk about electronic music unless you mention Delia Derbyshire. This is a poor post in the sense that I could fill up pages about Delia's gift to the world of electronic music. One of the greats.

    She never got the recognition she deserved (mostly due to the BBC, probably) and finished up working in a bookshop or something.

    Her original realisation of the theme to Doctor Who is an electronic and musical benchmark of its genre. It can't really be done today on synthesizers and sound any good compared to the original.

    All the makers and exploiters of synthesizers, along with their bank managers should bow down and thank Delia Derbyshire (1937-2001).
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    PaulR,

    Pretty sure ALIEN was 100% acoustic. Pretty sure.

    Evan Evans
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    That darn Paul keeps beating me to the punch.
    After my last post I immediately remembered Logans Run (another Goldsmith gem) then come to find it here soon after. Oh well...

    William has it right I agree, on the two greatest sci-fi films ever. Everyone remember who plays the captain in Forbidden Planet?

    Haven't heard of Delia Derbyshire Paul but most interested.

    And Evan, you cannot hide from the wrath of the mystcal world of the internet - we will find you and meed out and exact punishment (if not banishment.)
    [6]

    Dave Connor

    always wanted to use that particular emoticon
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    That is interesting about Delia Derbyshire. I don't believe I've heard her name even once until now. What you say about her sounds very similar to Varese. The Poeme Electronique was created in 1957 and played at the '58 Brussels Worlds Fair on 400 speakers inside a huge pavilion. It was done with the same technique of mainly snipping tape and distorting recorded sounds. It is a fascinating sounding piece. I'd like to hear some of Derbyshire's works.

    I can't say I agree though with hating synthesizers. I don't understand why someone interested in new sound timbres - especially electronically manipulated - would do that.