William,

You said what I meant far better. I havn't seen Peter Pan - probably will after all this. Maybe I should report back to the forum on my impressions. I think this type of discourse is healthy. I remember when great musicians would point out flaws in other musicians that I really admired. I always came around to their view upon maturing. You can tell when someone is sprouting sour grapes, or envious, and knocks a musician of quality for no good reason. But there is a difference between say John Coltrane and Kenny G don't you think?

Dave,

thanks for birthday salutation - I'm right popular around here it seems. [:D]

Two filmscore writers/composers mentioned in this thread by Dave and William have included one of my three personal favourites. Ennio Morricone and Franz Waxman.

Two of their pieces of music immediately spring to mind and their usage within the framework of a film.

The first one, I think the piece is called La Resa Dei Conte from For a Few Dollars More by Ennio Morricone is well known and incredible. How he intergrates the pocket watch theme and climaxes with the inclusion of a church organ is beyond me. Its the bit where Indio played by Gian Maria Volente has a sort of duel with one of his men. One of the most defined western scenes ever, completely highlighted by the mucical composition of Morricone. One of the best theme/orchestrators ever and I believe he fell out with Hollywood over union rates. maybe someone could correct or clarify on that.

The second one, is the opening music to Hitchcocks Rear window by Franz Waxman, made in 1954, before Hitchcocks' established relationship with BH.
The music is 'jazzy' and again, for me defines the rest of the films aura, claustrophobic and voyeuristic. He'd done a jazz type score for a film 2 or 3 years earlier called A Place in the Sun for which he was awarded an Oscar.

As composers, they seem to be eons apart in style, but had great facility to put music to film, thus enhancing the audiences viewing experience with their brilliant writing and orchestration/thematic techniques.

Any thoughts?

This is a good thread and I'm enjoying it. I loved Evan's review of Peter Pan although I have'nt seen it yet. I can't wait to see Grandma's silly acting. [:D]

[quote=PaulR] I may be wrong, but had that piece of music been badly scored, it may not have worked so well as it does and been noticed negatively by an audience not versed in the principals of orchestration, even if they couldn't explain why.

Are we all in agreement that shoddy workmanship in either orchestration or composition detracts from the ultimate quality of a film? And just because the layman doesn't neccessarily detect it (although PaulR makes a very good point about that above) that we as music writers should be able to detect it? (which is fundamental to my original point.)

Ring that bell and chime in fella's

DC

I agree about Morricone - it is amazing how much he did with seemingly simple effects. He had an extremely original approach, in that it was very different from the somewhat turgid orchestral treatment common before him. One of the most startling examples that comes to mind was those strange guttural male choir effects in the Leone films. I think he had more influence on contemporary film music than many people realize.

Which reminds me of my favorite of the Italians - Nino Rota. His music for Fellini is some of the greatest film music ever composed. Listen to the score of Juliet of the Spirits for one. But his concert music was equally good - unlike a lot of film composers (such as Herrmann - though Herrrman did some great chamber pieces like the Souvenir de Voyage). Another more recent Italian I really like is Pino Donnagio, who is generally known for his Brian de Palma scores, but the best one I've heard is the score for "Don't Look Now" - one of the greatest psychological-supernatural films and for which he created a melancholy, neo-baroque Albinoni-like score for strings, guitar, harp, percussion and pipe organ that adds immeasureably to the ambiance of the film.

On the subject of lousy orchestration it's true it can almost subliminally affect the audience. Though most of the time I don't think that happens. Most film music is either merely functional or basically irrelevant. In other words, usually it is just pablum that goes with the scene like a more of less effective sound effect, but never does anything really expressive. And only the finest composers raise it from that mediocre level. Very rarely do I notice truly terrible film music. Most of the time it is simply forgettable.

Today we are living in a time when almost every film composer copies two people - John Williams (who copied Korngold) and Bernard Herrmann (who copied no one and is the most original American composer in any medium of the twentieth century - except maybe for Duke Ellington). Film music right now is starting to sound - to me at least - as uniform and by-the-numbers as the saccharine, overly romantic, Liszt-Rachmaninoff-Tchaikovsky style of the 1940s studio films. The most important thing that a composer today must do is to stop copying these people and do something original. That's one reason I like Elfman because though he is influenced by Herrmann, (as in the "Batman" score for example the intro being close to a re-write of "Journey to the Center of the Earth") he has somehow managed to create something different and recognizable as his own.

[quote=Christian Marcussen] Sad that you are so well versed in the principals of orchestration, that it can pull you right out of a movie.

Christian,

Sorry I didn't see your post before so I have answered here.

It's the principles of composition that I was referring to and of course I'm not sad that I learned them (since I'm a composer.)

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. If I hear a composer make a mistake in the movement of voices (notes) that a beginning composition student should be cured of after about two months of private lessons, I hear it immediately because it's so fundamental.

Does a drummer know when another drummer is rushing terribly? Does a bass player know when another bass player is too busy and not playing enough of the root of the chord so that you can't tell what the harmony or rhythm actually is?

There are very basic principles in all of music that are not subjective but objective (except when deliberately violated for effect such as detuning a piano.) No concert pianist wants to play a piano that is way out of tune. Who wants to hear that? If a piano went suddenly out of tune in the middle of a concert it would pull everyone out of the music causing them to wince with anxiety.

I have winced a number of times during many of JNH's films.

DC

@William said:

On the subject of lousy orchestration it's true it can almost subliminally affect the audience. Though most of the time I don't think that happens.

Two points about this:

one is that PaulR emphasized that unique orchestration can have a very powerful effect and that bad or ineffective orchestration/composition will be noticed by the audience on some level. I agree.

two is that I agree that most orchestration in film is sound and even good because there are very good orchestrators working in film. The point I have been making here all along is that bad writing cannot be saved by being blown up into a big orchestral score.


DC

@PaulR said:

Two filmscore writers/composers mentioned in this thread by Dave and William have included one of my three personal favourites. Ennio Morricone and Franz Waxman. As composers, they seem to be eons apart in style, but had great facility to put music to film, thus enhancing the audiences viewing experience with their brilliant writing and orchestration/thematic techniques.

This is the positive side of what I've really been talking about. These two composers both have major writing chops and come from eras where that was the rule and not the exception. I don't think it's nitpicking to say that composers like these set a standard that should not be ignored by all who would aspire to or are currently practising the same profession.

DC

I have a little [[;)]] question for composers who write small parts instead on writing directly for an orchestra: what do you do? Do you always write first for piano? but I assume there is always some orchestration idea, right? there are notes that on piano does not have the same effect as in a woodwind, or for strings, and of course that do not have the same articulations... so I guess one has already in mind a type of sound, timbre,colours, ambience he wants to do... then what do you write on the piano? just the harmonies? conduction of voices? everything on 4 voices?

Thks, I am currently scoring a short film and I am a bit curious about that since I have always chosen some things on the piano but when a sketch is already written I then write/orchestrate "on the road" which leads me sometimes to good and original things but other times it just leads me out of the original idea and sometimes a bit lost too [[;)]] though it'd work anyway...

Thks, regards,

Ivan.

[quote=Tycheth]I have a little [;)] Do you always write first for piano?

Ivan, writing on a keyboard is OK if you are a keyboard player of course. A lot of writers don't have keyboards as their first instrument. Maybe, brass, bass or strings, naturally.

Do you always write first for the piano? This question sort of came up in another thread and was touched upon by William and Nick. For myself, I play parts out on a keyboard but not necessarily with a piano sound.
You may already have the 'sounds' in your head and be working from an orchestral template (say, on your computer screen), build the parts up one by one. For myself, I try to maybe imagine how a wind or string player for instance, might physically play a given section. On a computer, its never going to be perfect in terms of articulation etc. but technology will move forwards I guess.

I try to stick to an instrument template chosen from the outset if I can and not add extra instruments. I hardly ever achieve that though.

Good artists, painting a picture always seem to know when to stop adding more and more layers of paint. Many good musical pieces, short or long, become muddy because the writer may not know when to stop adding more instruments.

Mozart is for me the best at keeping it simple on the score, but thats a whole different ballgame. He had perfect pitch and could probably do the whole deal in his head and then onto paper.

Ivan you make an interesting post that is worthy I imagine of much discussion, but perhaps this is the wrong thread.

A new thread on this subject would be good.
[:)]
Paul

You are right, I am following this in a new thread... it's getting very interesting [;)]

If a piano went suddenly out of tune in the middle of a concert it would pull everyone out of the music causing them to wince with anxiety.DC[/quote]

I know this is sort of irrelevant, but several years ago now, a concert pianist was doing a world tour. This is true.
Anyway, he'd got to somewhere in the Far East and went on stage to play the chosen repetoire. After a while, apparently because of the humidity in the hall, the piano was just right out of tune and the poor guy was obviously suffering. He suddenly just stopped playing and left the stage. Much to the surprise of the audience, he suddenly returns to the stage carrying a fire axe and then proceeds to chop up the piano (I think it was a Model D) in front of them. If he did that today in England, he'd probably win the Turner Prize for performance art. I just had to share that with you because Dave's quote just reminded me. I did a similar thing myself many years ago in a recording studio in London to a Mini Moog that just kept going out of tune, only I used a chair.

Great discussion here and I appreciate your thoughts. I particularly remember Nick Roegs Don't Look Now[b] score by Pino Donnagio that William mentions. That illustrates what I was clumsily trying to say to Ivan about orchestral templates etc. Less can sometimes be more and as Dave puts it, its not just about making sound.

"The point I have been making here all along is that bad writing cannot be saved by being blown up into a big orchestral score."

That is perfectly put, and maybe the worst single characteristic about bad film music. An example of this is how a pathetic little ditty which would sound ridiculous on a piano becomes much more "impressive" if you smear a throbbing string section all over it.

Also, I don't think that being taken out of a film by bad writing is "sad" - unless you think ignorance is bliss.

@William said:

Also, I don't think that being taken out of a film by bad writing is "sad" - unless you think ignorance is bliss.

Chuckled at that one william [:)]

DC

Paul R

I am glad someone else in the universe knows of "Don't Look Now." That film scared me almost to the point of psychosis and the music (as well as the cinematography, editing, acting - you name it) is brilliant in it.

Also, that is an amazing story about the destruction of the piano. It sounds like 60's rockers destroying their guitars at the end of a concert. I suppose that's to be expected as I personally know that classical musicians are as unstable and self-destructive as rock any day of the week. And twice on Sunday.

[quote=William]"Don't Look Now."

Hi William,

Yeah! That is a seriously scary film when you get right into it. My wife won't watch it again. The score plays a major role in making it so. Without giving it away to anyone who hasn't seen it and may want to, I think its the very end that has the most problems for her. [:)]

The Far East concert? It actually was on national news quite a few years ago and the broadcaster went into it in detail (and relish) I remember. Again, my wife reminded me of it when she caught one of Dave's posts about a piano going out of tune, and I just finished up on floor again [:D]

I'm slightly ashamed to say that I would have payed folding money to be a member of the audience on that night. Can you imagine it. Brilliant. [:D]

My Mini Moog adventure was neary as good, mind you.

Paul and William

This is major fun guys. I really enjoy your witty and intelligent posts.
And the info is great. I have to see "Don't look Now" for sure and William: Pino Donnagio, did he score Dressed to Kill?

Paul - a minimoog going out of tune? Really? And you savaged it with a chair? I and the entire keyboard playing community throughout the universe thank you for this meritorious act and do confer upon you title of "Best Keyboard Player of the Last Century." Not for your playing (which you may deserve as well) but for best representing the hearts of all your fellow practioners. As for this century the title is still up for grabs as GIGASTUDIO and ABSYNTH invite the wrath of so many - so often. Even the most sedate and even keeled gentlemen find themseleve involuntarily vying for this award, as incomprehensible violence wells up within them while another unsaved piece of music crashes into the sea.

Respectfully,

David Patrick Connor the 1st.

HEHE [:D]

3 things Dave.

Yes. Pino Donnagio scored Dressed to Kill

Absynths sound great and will seriously damage your brain and computer

Mini Moog story would be even funnier if the bloody thing hadn't belonged to me

This is certainly great fun

Thats 4 things!

Wasted

Paul,

I have only one thing to say.

Dave

I also think this is interesting.

BTW the score Donnagio wrote for "Blow Out" is probably the best of the de Palma films he scored. Do you agree on that?

Probably not coincidentally, "Blow Out" is de Palma's best film which unfortunately is not saying that much at least based on his later work. "Sisters" and "Blow Out" are really imaginative films, but most of the rest - gag. And of course "Sisters" benefitted from the awesome Herrmann score - what a masterpiece! (Is that a surprise?) He used two analog synthesizers along with brass, woodwinds, glockenspiel, vibraphone, harp. It is an obsessive, disturbing, weirdly beautiful work that shows how he was composing shockingly original things right up to the end. (The very last score was "Taxi Driver" which was just as original and good.)

William,

Blow Out - was John Travolta in that? Pardon my ignorance.

DC