Understood.
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I alos meant to mention Vaughn-Williams as one of my favorites. For an example of pure orchestration at its most colorful - the Seventh Symphony which was based on the film score to "Scott of the Antarctic." The depiction of the remote, inhuman landscape and awesome natural forces is brilliantly handled in that piece. Also the Sixth Symphony with its sustained pp finale (inspired perhaps by his friend Holst's "Neptune"); the Eighth with the slow movement and scherzo being done entirely by strings alone and winds alone respectively; and the Ninth with its inclusion of a "concertino" sax trio. Vaughn-Williams, along with Holst, innovated much of modern orchestration.
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I'm just doing this for fun and to see if anyone agrees or has their own list - my favorite orchestrations of all time (which includes necessarily composition because I don't like anything that is just good orchestration but lousy music!) -
Mahler's 2nd (probably my favorite of all pieces of music ever written with the RCA Ormandy Philadelphia LP the greatest music recording of all time - human beings cannot express more with sound than this)
Strauss Alpine Symphony
Strauss Thus Spake Zarathustra
Strauss Death and Transfiguration
Debussy Images
Debussy Jeux
Debussy La Mer
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
Stravinksy Firebird
Stravinsky Rite of Spring (of course)
Shostakovich 5th
Shostakovich 10th
Ravel Daphnis and Chloe
Ravel Mother Goose Suite
Rimsky Korsakov Capriccio Espagnol
Holst The Planets
Holst Egdon Heath
Holst Perfect Fool Suite
Vaughn Williams 4th, 6th, 7th, 9th symphonies
Herrmann Vertigo
Herrmann Journey to the Center of the Earth
Herrmann Obession
Herrmann Marnie
Herrmann Jason and the Argonauts
Tchaik 5th and 6th (another obvious one)
Beethoven 3rd and 9th
Stokowski Bach transcriptions: Komm Susser Tod, Chaconne from Partita in D
Borodin b minor symphony
Ravel orch. of Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition
These are only some examples that spring to mind which emphasize orchestral use as well as great ideas. Of course many other great composers - like Mozart, Schubert, Brahms, and above all Bach - emphasize musical ideas with fairly conventional (or no) orchestration.
Who have I left out? If anyone has their own favorites I'd be interested to know.
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Dvorak - of course. He was a great one I left out. The 7th symphony, the 9th of course, many others. He was probably as much a master of orchestration as Tchaikovsky whose orchestral treatment he reminds me of.
Bruckner is one of my favorites purely as a composer, though some people take issue with his orchestration, accusing it of being "block-like" as if too much influenced by his organ background. I don't agree with that and really like it - especially the extreme dynamic contrasts he was so fond of between tutti ff and pp solos, the majestic brass writing, and the great soaring string lines. His music was infinitely simpler than Mahler's, almost as if the simple spirituality of his nature (being a very devout countryman who only moved to the big city) and his love of nature were reflected in the rock-solid, huge forms of his symphonies.
Whereas Mahler - a Jew who converted to Christianity, a neurotic but very sophisticated urbanite, was reflected in the restless, even agitated qualities of his music which had the deepest lows and highest peaks conceivable. The 6th symphony in particular is a tremendous, surging dynamo of everchanging emotions.
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Mahler's 6th Bernstein NY
Berg Vln Cto, 7 Last Songs, Wozzeck
Beethoven Beethoven Beethoven
Elliot Carter Vatiations for Orch
Zemlinsky Lyriche Symph
Copeland 3rd Symph
Schumann Symph's and Orch Works
Dvorak
Brahms
Mendelsohn
Wagner (did tons for modern orchestration)
Debussey
Ravel
Britten
Walton
Bach
Wolfgang
Barber
Bartok
I guess I havn't posted here because you just want to put down all the major guys. I can't really list works cause there are so many.
DC
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A little surprise here maybe but...
Puccini is an absolute monster ochestrator. La Boheme is masterful. He is one of the most difficult to apprehend (for me) as far as his entire approach. He has a way of passing things off that is brilliant. Colin Davis the great British conductor has voiced his marvel at Puccini's handling of the orchestra.
Debussy perhaps exemplifies the concept of composition/orchestration as a singular endeavor as much as anyone (Afternoon of a Faun an astonishing example.) No one presented their work in the orchestra any better than that man. A great, great musician.
DC
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How did we manage to leave Vaughn Williams out? (Paul rectified that thankfully - standing up for his fellow countryman I suppose.)
The Lark Ascending is a beautiful piece if music to be sure. Think I'll pull that LP out.
Is it just me or is Vaughn Williams growing in stature? His music is holding up very well and he is as copied as anyone it seems.
In a phone conversation with David Raksin I mentioned to him I thought he sounded like Mahler to which he replied, "A lot of people say Vaughn Williams" which I thought was interesting.
DC
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@PaulR said:
William puts Vaugn Williams in his list next to Holst.
Heavens you're right Paul. Not paying attention. And he lists some dandy symphonies (leaving out the 2nd and 5th however which are also gems.) VW's 5th is being "borrowed from" right and left these days. Gorgeous string writing at the and of it btw. The Klingon theme in Star Trek V is right out of it for sure. The 4th also has very intense writing and orchestration that's found it's way into film.
It seems that film writing behaves so often as the step child of the Classical literature. I must agree that Bernard Herman (as William advocates) is the least derivative although Mr. Goldsmith and North have also been stunningly original -oops - wrong thread.
dave
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Good Heavens we left dear Sergei Prokfiev out! "Close Encounters" would not have been the same score had Mr. P. not penned Cinderella all those years before. He is one of the most emulated in orchestral color (and downright music) in Hollywood to be sure.
On the original liner notes to the soundtrack of Close Encounters Spielberg mentions JWilliams instruction to him on "the importance of Russian composers." Also, at a JGoldsmith session I attended (Super Girl) Alexander Courage his orchestrator then said, " For musical development - German composers, for film development - Russian. He explained how the Russians would develop through reorchestration of the same material and the Germans would develop the material itself. Very inciteful.
Evan champions Prokofiev here often.
Dave
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OK, I'm going to make a case for Charles Ives, based on the 1 & 2nd Orchestral sets, Central Park in the Dark, The unanswered question and Symphony no4.
I suppose Ives does not immediately spring to mind when we think of the great "orchestrators" and I know recently there's been a fair amount published regarding the "authenticity" of some of his published scores. Also, anyone who's ever played anything by Ives would not say that if fits easily under the fingers etc , or is immediatley comprehensible, but if we judge an orchestrator by her/his capacity to realise and make clear musical ideas, then I think, we'd have to included him with those mentioned above.
I think the list so far has been too conservative and with a few exceptions too grounded european romantic ideas "great" orchestration.
kind regards
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These are interesting responses. I agree that list I made was conservative - it was just something off the top of my head and I knew I was leaving out many. I particularly like the mention of Albert roussel, Oliver Messiaen and Respighi. The Pines of Rome - one of the definitions of orchestration. Also Charles Ives - he created shocking new uses of the orchestra no one had ever even imagined. Especially the idea of "eclectic" use (that you can hear today anywhere, especially in film scores) - in other words having something completely atonal like a sound from another universe and three seconds later an old church hymn or brass band tune. No one had ever expanded the possibilities that far before him.
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@Nick said:
OK, I'm going to make a case for Charles Ives, based on the 1 & 2nd Orchestral sets, Central Park in the Dark, The unanswered question and Symphony no4.
Nick,
It seems that Charles Ives transcends the question of "greatest orchestrator" in that he is one of the most unique musical personalities of all time. What tree did this guy spring from? We can trace the roots of Bach, Mozart and the rest (even though their genius is equally unexplainable.) But Ives mature music (his early stuff sounds like Brahms!) is seminal. Not just seminal but radical. So radical that he doesn't fit in to any time period including his own. Stravinsky pointed out that Ives' polyrhythm's were 50 years ahead of their time.
As far as orchestrating his work, he reaches the ideal of a singular creative idea. You don't hear the orchestration of an idea in the traditional sense. You hear the idea presented as a singular whole with many aspects. In this sense he is a master orchestrator to be sure. I can't imagine anyone finding an Ives sketch and "orchestrating" it, which you could do with countless other composers. (I recently mentioned him in another thread btw.)
Gesualdo is the only guy I can think of that is a unique as Ives.
Thanks for bringing him up.
Dave Connor