I generally don't comment on rants. But I gotta jump in and say that, on this forum, I've been blown away by the usefulness of Jerome's posts and his helpful, respectful and responsive attitude. Jerome's detailed descriptions of his setup and his way of working provided me with a crucial crash course on how to get up and running quickly with VI.

Certainly nothing in any of his posts even begins to justify the level of vitriol that's just been hurled his way. Or did I miss the post where he said "The comparatively small number of articulations in the Appassionata strings just made me go out and hurt a small child?"

Jerome, don't be driven away by this, and thanks for the wealth of info you've provided here.

Peter

I virtually never post, but I have to agree with Plurye. William, you are out of control here. I admit that I don't quite understand Jerome's concern, since I don't really need extensive articulations for comping, but I find myself feeling embarassed over your defensive overreaction. I have come to appreciate Jerome's insight and help.

What really scares me about this thread is the indication from several comments that A.S. appears to be flawed: not a complete section, maybe it will be improved, useful for rounding out existing libraries, etc... I'm putting my credit card back in my pocket. The fact is that I will not purchase another expensive string section that doesn't really knock everyone out. My fear is compounded by the fact that I can't find any "naked" AS demos on the site, even as it is being shipped. What's up with that?? If anybody can refer me to some, PLEEZ let me know.

Fact is, my VSL strings have been a huge disappointment. Of the last hundred projects I have done for clients, NOT ONE of them has chosen the version with the VSL strings. I have taken them off of my hard drive. The winds and percussion are fabulous, but the strings...

RW

OK, I'm going to jump in here as well. SPLASSSSSSSSSSSH.

Who says that Appassionata Strings is flawed? None of us have even seen it yet, so how would we know? I have been using the Violins for a while now, and whilst I find that there are not enough articulations for my purposes, I still use them on most projects. The red herring of wanting string patches is exactly that; a red herring. One of the great things about VSL is the ability to try to create believable orchestrations in a virtual sense. There is nothing believable about string patches. This is not to say that some composers wouldn't find them useful for noodling, but the idea of using them on a demo fills me with dread. OK, if you are just holding down a few chords and are quite happy to have 80 violins etc. in your section, then fair enough, but to play any kind of meaningful legato line would be nonsensical.

I'm not trying to be some sort of snob here, but if the thought of all articulations in a multipurpose, Wal Mart patch appeals so much, then I would suggest that the whole principle behind VSL is not really what you are looking for. Of course, I could be wrong. It has happened before. [:D]

DG

I think Herb and VSL et al has once again shown that they follow the age old adage "treat others as you yourself would want to be treated" - they have continued to offer a generous and fair upgrade path to their dedicated users - in the form of the free extended edition on the appa strings. At the same time he has to do the right thing by the company so it can grow be prosperous and continue on this very interesting and productive path, but it's clear to me at least that he and those at VSL are thinking "Hmmm, if I were the end user, I would be happy with... this", and that is such a rare commodity in a company and individual leader within a company these days, and shows a depth of character and personality - all around a thing to be, at least as far as I am concerned, highly commended.

All I'm saying myself is that I think it is unfair that after all the hard work the first post about this library is a negative one, when it is really a fantastic library.

Miklos.

Having chimed in, I should point out that I have no opinion whatsoever about AS -- haven't heard a note. I'm sure it's amazing, and probably not perfect. And I'm sure I'll buy it sometime. Hey, I've bought whole sample libraries and ended up using one or two patches -- waddya gonna do?

I was simply making a plea for civility. If you don't agree with what somewhat says, why not just disagree as passionately as you want with the person's argument, and stop short of launching a personal attack? On this forum in particular I've found that there are so many people with useful info, we're all served if everyone is encouraged to contribute. Something tells me that a groundbreaker like Herb isn't crying himself to sleep over a criticism or two, even one shot from the hip -- hey, I'm sure even Rolls Royce gets calls saying "That new hood ornament was supposed to be 24-carat gold -- only looks like 18 to me."

PL

Jerome said:

"I find it interesting that Herb says that what VSL do for sections can't be done on a "full strings" patch. What about snap pizz, col legno, harmonics (in the Strings I & II collections)? It would *useful* to be able to use these "articulations" (or whatever the way you want to call them) on the whole string orchestra range, without having to pull up 5 strings tracks to play a full col legno chord."

I totally agree with Jerome here and see nothing wrong with this idea. Why not give us more Full String articualtions like harmonics, snap pizz, col legno...

Anyone have a good reason why NOT to have these patches? Am I missing somethig?

I don't think the monophonic articualtions need to be included but why not have all the "pad"-able articulations?

Dragon

All "pad-able" patches which are available for all four string sections of the appassionatas are included as full string patches.

best
Herb

@herb said:

All "pad-able" patches which are available for all four string sections of the appassionatas are included as full string patches.

best
Herb

Thanks for your reply Herb but don't you feel that harmonics, snap pizz, and col legno could be useful as full string patches?

I know that in the context of this thread it seems my concern is specific to the AS library but I understand that the AS library was really intended to provide a higher level of expressiveness then hereto developed and that these extra full strings articulations would not really add to the expressiveness of the library so not including them in AS makes sense.

BUT, why not add these full strings articulations to the strings I and II libraries at least?

I would love to be able to load a full string section pad of harmonics without having to load 5 instances of the VI and 5 tracks in my sequencer.

Thanks for listening,
Dragon

My issue, was not with any critism, or request for more features - only that the first post off the bat was such a downer, and I thought anyone with any sensitivity would consider that this is a newly released library, and it's a bit low to put that there in *that* context, without considering first the hard work and good energy of the people involved who made this, what is, a beautiful library. I've heard the demo's and I already knew it would be fantastic from using the hearing the violins section the last few months.

But of course, there is nothing wrong with somebody expressing their own opinions, crtisisms, and requests for features, it's more a question of timing and context.

Certainly the people at VSL aren't going to be mortally wounded over it! But the fact is how would YOU feel, I suppose that is my point - if you consider that, coming onto the forum and reading something that reads as though they have made some kind of critical mistake "once again" about something you've just worked very hard on for a long time, and that is , in fact, exceedingly good quite contrary to what the subject of the post suggests. Of course you're going to know better, but that is not the point.

I think it's time that people on forums everywhere started reason their behaviour a little more, and to treat them like the public intellectual houses they are and not treat them as the public intellectual trash houses they are not, that is, you should take your coutesy and ethics with you that you use in your home, work and public onto the internet as well, and if you are drunk or something he he.... remember that you are drunk and in public, not a bar, which means other people might not also be drunk and sharing in the same experience as you. I think if you wouldn't normally say something like that or many other things in direct presence and company of the other people who are going to read it, then you shouldn't say it. In other words think if you would say that to another persons face in a person to person situation and you may find that you tend to say it very differently.

Miklos.

@Another User said:

In other words think if you would say that to another persons face in a person to person situation

an unwritten - sometimes also written - rule since the usenet existed in the internet and applicable to forums too.
well, sometimes you enter a nice bar and find yourself in a strong discussion going on ... hey, another tequila, please ...
christian

Lol [[:)]] I'm not sure alcohol would help... [[:)]]

Oh, well, I'll get a tequila too!

@Jerome said:

You can have all the "section" strings patches (violins I, violins II, violas, cellos, basses) and "full string" patches as well. Everybody wins!

I have chime in here in full support and agreement with Jerome. He's absolutely correct when he says that most fim composers use full string patches to sketch with. Most of us are working under incredible deadlines. Time is everything. I usually don't have time to play out every section individually when I'm just trying to sketch out different ideas. For composers that don't score for a living, maybe it not a concern, but guys like me and Jerome, having something as seemingly stupid and simple as a single full range string patch is a big deal. This is a tool we really need and use every single day.

So a full string patch in the various articulations would be very usefull - dare I say maybe even the most used on a daily basis. As it is now, I use sonic implants strings for sketches because VSL is lacking in these. What a shame really. I own the best and yet I can't really use it to sketch with, so I have use something else.


P.S - Jeeez William, did Jerome run over your dog or something? Because your replies are so completely out of line that I'm sure he must have done something horrible and wrong to your person. I can't imagine a sane and sensible person reacting like this in a thread about full string patches?

@herb said:

Performing legato but changing instruments seems very artificial to me.

Herb, you are correct in that respect. But what Jerome is talking about is using certain tools to able to work faster.

Like Jerome, I can't pull up 5 of everything and monkey about with sections when what I really need to do is use my hands and play the bulk of the strings as ideas very quickly so I can move on. When the final idea is there, I go back and redo all the sections as they would be done with a real string section.
VSI is the tool that I use to write music. I don't have the luxury of taking months to work out ideas. I have to produce a huge amount of finished music every day, every week. Speed is one of the most important issues that I have to deal with. Most score composers have to write somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 to 7 minutes of music in any given day. And as film production time shortens every year to save money, composers are under ever increasing time restrants.

If perfomance legato can't be accomplished, at least lets get all the other basics in a full range patch if possible. That would go a long way to making scoring with all VSI easier.
By the way, thanks for all the great work you guys have done. VSL has come a long way since you started and it is the best, but sometimes there is room for a little more improvement. This is one area that always seemed to be somewhat lacking in VSL. I believe that your perspective is one that comes from more of a classical arena, and therefore you don't really see the need for something as mundane as full patches, but it's a real need and most other libs offer them.

@Another User said:

If perfomance legato can't be accomplished, at least lets get the the basics in a full range patch. That would go a long way to making scoring with all VSI easier.

That's exactly what we have done.

@Another User said:

If perfomance legato can't be accomplished, at least lets get the the basics in a full range patch. That would go a long way to making scoring with all VSI easier.

That's exactly what we have done.

Thank you very much!

Tripit, nobody is arguing with the suggestion it was the manner and timing in which it was presented that has offended, and IMO, quite understandably so.

Miklos.

@mpower88 said:

Tripit, nobody is arguing with the suggestion it was the manner and timing in which it was presented that has offended, and IMO, quite understandably so.

Miklos.

Is this the Miklos from Africa?

Maybe so, maybe so...but some of the responses to the suggestion was, in my opinion, worse than the suggestion in the frist place.

Jerome brought up a valid point that has been put forth several times in the past. This is probably why his post had it's tone. I know I've mentioned it eons ago.

My post was more of an attempt to explain to Herb and company that agian, though they may not really see the importance, it's important to a number of us.

These are tools that many of us make a living with. I'm not an equipment glee club kind of guy. I don't get all warm and fuzzy about a software or hanging out in one of the fourms.
I work like crazy with little or no time off. I demand a lot from myself and if I'm investing a heathly sum into a tool, I will demand just as much from those who make it. You should see my on going struggle with DP and MOTU.

I do agree that a different approach from Jerome would have yelded better results. Civility goes a long way. But also, I can relate to Jerome's frustration. When comes to VSI and any high end expensive software, you expect it to not be lacking in such a simple and obivous feature that most less expensive and inferior products already include.
That's kind of the bottom line here. it's pretty silly that after buying VSI that one would have to use another lib just to do sketch work.

Regarding Appassionata Strings it's simple not possible to offer more full string patches, because there are no more articulation in the double basses available.

For the Orchestral Strings more option would be possible, maybe we can offer an update in the future.
But the subject of this topic are full range patches of the Appassionatas, or did I miss the point?

@herb said:

Regarding Appassionata Strings it's simple not possible to offer more full string patches, because there are no more articulation in the double basses available.

For the Orchestral Strings more option would be possible, maybe we can offer an update in the future.
But the subject of this topic are full range patches of the Appassionatas, or did I miss the point?

I believe Jerome's suggestion was directly about the Appassionatas, but this issue really goes way beyond that. It's really about the other strings as well. I for one would love to see more options for the Ocrhestral Strings.

Anything that you can offer up in the way of full range would be great Herb. If it's not possible with the Appassionatas to have all, then do what you can, and maybe even if possible offer some Vls,Vas,Vcs with out the bass. The more we have to work the easier it is for us to use in our sketch work.
Thanks.

P.s - I just bought the Apassionatas online. I look forward to putting them to work.

Maybe I should clarify my own post - I dont argue the suggestion of having more full string patches (where possible as Herb has pointed out). The only objection here from me and I believe others as well, was the manner, and the timing in which the original post was delivered.

Miklos
(not from Africa - a Hungarian from Australia!)